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Author Topic: Data from TEMP LOGGER - need some feedback  (Read 654 times)
ThomasGR
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« on: August 07, 2013, 05:07:28 PM »

Hello,
I placed a temp - humidity logger on the top of a brood box ( on the top of the middle frames ). The logger recorded values for 2 days and after that i changed the setup of the hive. The graphical presentation changed a lot. The temperature became more stable during day and night.

I do not want to say initially what i changed in to the hive setup in order not to discuss that but which environment is best for bees just from reading the numbers.

Of course i will tell that after. Here is the graphic :

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millipede
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 05:13:03 PM »

I think the bees and honey both do better with more ventilation. The bees regulate the brood temperature pretty locally. I am not sure if that is measurable unless you put a thermocouple directly into the brood itself.
Bees seem to be pretty adaptable to temps. I would think in the long run if the brood itself could be kept at 92ish the bees would have to work less. But I can't say that I have read any studies on temp stability in honeybees.
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Dr. B in Wisconsin
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 05:50:47 PM »

Looks like there is a correlation going on there, I work in inspection where we pay close attention to temperature, it is very important. I also work in a calibration lab where the temp is controlled + / - 1/2 degree. Bees control there house just like we do but I think they do it better without the electricty we use.
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JWChesnut
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 07:09:49 PM »

Post-intervention shows
1. lower high temps,
 2. warmer low temps,
3. slower decay to low temp,
4. much smoothed short duration flux.

I would guess you reduced ventilation (ie closed a top entrance), or added insulated top cover.  This accounts for the less flashy pattern of changes (lower short duration signal).  The changes in the RH curve is less important because RH is strongly temp dependent, same total volume of vapor will be lower RH at higher temps.

My guess is the post-intervention environment is better as showing greater stability.  However, high temps have been cited as an anti-mite treatment.  High temps may also help curing honey.  Brood development is temp dependent.
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ThomasGR
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 04:19:33 PM »

That's correct. I added a 5cm insulation board exactly above the frames and deactivated that way the top ventilation of the hive. This hive has a open bottom ( screened ? ) and is 2 deeps. Something that changed relatively fast, was that after that change, bees went down to the 1st deep and started to place honey to the second deep where brood was emerging. When there was top ventilation they used almost only the 2nd deep as a single brood box. I also think that they cure the honey faster.

Does anyone has some information about relation of brood and ventilation ? Is it possible that bees went down to have better ventilation for the brood ? Queen insist to lay upwards but bees do not leave many empty cells anymore...
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JWChesnut
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 05:06:20 PM »

The top entrance advocates use inductive logic to support their suppositions, as much as I can determine.  You have used empirical data.

 This tension between Aristotelians (Inductive) and Empiricists (Deductive) is as old as your nation's and the western world's  civilization.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 05:40:17 PM by JWChesnut » Logged
mdax
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 05:07:39 PM »

That's pretty cool.  I use rapsberry pi's in my aquaponic system to track temperature...are you using 18B20's or analog?

Where did you place the sensors?  Are they getting glued into place with propolis?

I was planning on setting up a couple electric imps to record hive weight changes.  You using raspberry pi's, arduino's or imps?
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10framer
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2013, 07:05:50 PM »

Post-intervention shows
1. lower high temps,
 2. warmer low temps,
3. slower decay to low temp,
4. much smoothed short duration flux.

I would guess you reduced ventilation (ie closed a top entrance), or added insulated top cover.  This accounts for the less flashy pattern of changes (lower short duration signal).  The changes in the RH curve is less important because RH is strongly temp dependent, same total volume of vapor will be lower RH at higher temps.

My guess is the post-intervention environment is better as showing greater stability.  However, high temps have been cited as an anti-mite treatment.  High temps may also help curing honey.  Brood development is temp dependent.

jw, is the theory that higher temperatures make for slightly shorter brood cycles reducing the ability of the mites to develop? 
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 10:11:09 PM »

That's correct. I added a 5cm insulation board exactly above the frames and deactivated that way the top ventilation of the hive. This hive has a open bottom ( screened ? ) and is 2 deeps. Something that changed relatively fast, was that after that change, bees went down to the 1st deep and started to place honey to the second deep where brood was emerging. When there was top ventilation they used almost only the 2nd deep as a single brood box. I also think that they cure the honey faster.

Does anyone has some information about relation of brood and ventilation ? Is it possible that bees went down to have better ventilation for the brood ? Queen insist to lay upwards but bees do not leave many empty cells anymore...

Greece, you must have what we here in the States refer to as Caucasian bees, the same I had an opportunity to work with when I was in Synop, Turkey in 1968-69 (U.S. Army).  Caucasian bees have always had a tendency to have small brood chambers of only one deep or 2 medium supers.  I had some here Washington state 1962-68 and found them to be prone to small brood chambers and lots of burr comb.  In Turkey they used only a single deep hive body either 10 or 12 frames wide, harvesting honey by removing the honey frames outside the 6-8 brood frames.  The Beekeepers I worked with in Turkey, re-enforced my own observations that the Caucasian was unable to do well with multiple box hives, being primarily limited to a deep brood box and medium super and hard to expand beyond that size.
I think the bees were just reacting to the change the lack of ventilation made as it increased the temperatures in the upper box to a level that made it harder for the bees to regulate the temp and consequently began moving the brood chamber down to a level that made such temperature regulation easier.  That is consistent with what I have experienced with Caucasian bees.
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JWChesnut
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2013, 10:58:49 AM »

Interesting research on middle-eastern lineage (aka "O" type, and includes Cyprus and Turkey) in North American Feral bees.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/236783606_Genetic_evidence_for_honey_bees_(Apis_mellifera_L.)_of_middle_eastern_lineage_in_the_United_States/file/504635193a3934a935.pdf

The core finding is "O" type mitochondria is present and continuing in feral populations, despite not being present in commercial queen breeding.  The implication is the "O" type confers adaptive advantage and is being retained by natural selection.

Mitchondria DNA  is passed from mother to daughter unchanged by sexual recombination so is an especially useful tool for tracing lineages. The "out of Africa" research on human origins use mtDNA to study lineage.

The particular type from Utah and Southern California is called "O2" and has an original accession from Lebanon.

It is hypothesized that the "O" type is better adapted to hot and dry conditions.

The paper notes in passing a study of commercial queen breeders has found only six mitotypes, all of middle European origin.
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JWChesnut
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2013, 11:16:58 AM »

Paper on humidity vis-a-vis Varroa.  http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/bio/2002-0125-093525/70840217.pdf
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10framer
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2013, 12:31:28 PM »



that's really interesting.  we have high temperatures and a pretty high relative humidity down here until maybe the first of september when dry cool air starts pushing down from the north.  even then highs in the 90's are pretty common.  i've seen highs in the 80's in november many years. 
that study makes a lot of sense.  the mites seem to do the most damage in the fall and winter.
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ThomasGR
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 12:34:19 PM »

Caucasian bees are not native in Greece. Here we have "Cecropia" south and "Macedonica" to north Greece. Of course other bees exist but are not native. Also Islands have different bees.

So maybe its a simple reaction to the new ventilation setup and nothing more.

I use a simple logger found on ebay and not a mini PC, although i would like to learn how to use them for a beehive scale. But i have no time to learn...

Thanks for the link.
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