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Author Topic: Hive swarmed...what should I expect  (Read 717 times)
Carol
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« on: July 27, 2013, 10:26:04 AM »

Yesterday my hive thru off a swarm. Still many bees. It had one medium super full of capped honey but none in the other supers. Must have been back filling. The swarm left for parts as yet unknown.
I pulled 3 frames of honey...moved one deep frame of brood into the medium super...and put in 2 empty frames (foundationless) did not look for a new Queen, but did see pollen coming in. Wasn't sure how much I should mess with the hive after the swarm or even if I should have...but did.
How long for the new Queen to start laying.?
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sc-bee
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2013, 11:22:34 AM »

Queen may not be there yet. May just have capped queen cells. Capped on day eight +8 to hatch + 14 to breed and lay = 22 days. Could be a little less if cell has emerged could be a little longer. Usually 28 days from begining to end. 7wks from beginning to end for hatched out brood from new queen.

It would not have hurt to take a closer look- IMO.
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Carol
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 01:20:28 PM »

SC-Bee....by closer look...do you mean take the brood nest apart to see if there are Queen cells? I am concerned about crushing them or a newly emerged Queen. Does the old Queen leave before the new Queen has emerged? I was under the impression the new one ran the old one off. ( shows you what I know)
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sc-bee
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 01:36:00 AM »

Do you still have a flow in front of you? How many queen cells in hive. Could have checked for capped queen cells and put  a couple in a nuc to raise another queen. How strong is the hive?

>I pulled 3 frames of honey...moved one deep frame of brood into the medium super...and put in 2 empty frames (foundationless) did not look for a new Queen, but did see pollen coming in.
Questions I ask myself. Placed a lone frame of deep brood above the deep brood chamber hanging in two stacked mediums?  Pulled three medium frames of honey from above to make room for deep frame? Or did you pull three deep frames of honey from below? Put in two empty frames of foundation? How many frames were removed from the deep?

If I was moving deep frames (to open brood nest) to stacked in mediums above (because of lack of equipment) I would have taken deep frames of honey away from hive a good distance, left them to be robbed out, put the two foundationless frames in and left the brood nest in tac IMHO.

Do you have only one hive, was this all done in one hive or did you move parts to other equipment?

I apologize- I just am having a hard time picturing your manipulation. It's probably me it's late. I am sure my pea brain has complicated the issue grin Maybe someone can come long and see it more clearly.

As for queen leaving, usually after cell(s) are capped. Don't necessarily wait for new queen to emerge. A crowded hive with many cells could throw after swarms.

Rolling the queen- well always a possibility but not as apt to roll a skinny virgin queen as you would a fat mated one.

I hope some of this made sense. Maybe your follow-up will help me or someone picture the situation better.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:48:35 AM by sc-bee » Logged

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 09:10:06 AM »

>How long for the new Queen to start laying.?
   
Assuming this was the primary swarm, it usually leaves the day the first queen cell gets capped.  So that means a new queen will emerge in 8 days.  That queen may leave with another swarm or the workers may allow her to kill all the others and stay.  Assuming she kills all the others (which are staggered in age, so they will emerge at different times if they do afterswarm) then she should be laying most likely two weeks later.  So that's about three weeks give or take a week. (two to four weeks).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm
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Michael Bush
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Carol
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 09:40:15 AM »

SC-Bee....  I have a deep for broodnest, was hopeing they would also use the first medium super. It was full of capped honey and they did not build in the 2 empty mediums I put on before we left.

I removed the 2 empty mediums, pulled 3 frames of honey from the first medium. Then pulled one frame of brood from the deep and put it in the medium super, hanging down into the deep. That will create a ladder for the Queen so she can lay in the first medium. I will check them in a few days. (I have 3 frames in the freezer) I will pull 3 more frames of honey and replace with the 3 empty frames from the freezer. That will leave them with 4 frames of honey. The palms are still blooming....but slowing down. We still have the Pepper Tree bloom in the fall so they should beable to fill it for the winter.

Michael....Should I wait 2 wks before checking for a Queen? or just let them do their thing.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 10:20:40 AM »

>How long for the new Queen to start laying.?
 So that means a new queen will emerge in 8 days.  That queen may leave with another swarm or the workers may allow her to kill all the others and stay.  Assuming she kills all the others (which are staggered in age, so they will emerge at different times if they do afterswarm) then she should be laying most likely two weeks later.  So that's about three weeks give or take a week. (two to four weeks).

>As stated in reply 1 but his narrative is better  grin
 May just have capped queen cells. Capped on day eight +8 to hatch + 14 to breed and lay = 22 days. Could be a little less if cell has emerged could be a little longer. Usually 28 days from begining to end. 7wks from beginning to end for hatched out brood from new queen.




« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:31:39 AM by sc-bee » Logged

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sc-bee
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 10:53:25 AM »

I think I may have picked up on something I did not earlier from your reply #5 description. You mentioned putting in two foundationless frames in your first reply. I was thinking you were putting  foundationless frames in the brood chamber trying to control swarming. So you are running foundationless medium supers is that correct or either a whole foundationless hive brood deep and supers.

If I have this pictured right you have removed a deep frame from the brood chamber, hang it from a medium above and created a void space below in the deep, with no frame in the void space below. As you know bees operate on bee space.
My point above, in earlier reply, was you have mixed and matched equipment, left the frameless space below and created a void with no frame as a guide. If this is indeed a correct picture, when the bees begin to fill space again they will most likely fill the void space in the brood chamber below and you will have a mess to contend with.

If you are doing foundationless I am out of my league. I do slip a foundationless frame in a brood chamber now and then between two already drawn frames. But would it not have been better to stagger your filled honey super above with foundationless frames from the second medium above. The filled honey frames would have created the ladder you were trying to create without moving the deep frame to the medium. At least that is my limited knowledge of manipulation of foundationless frames.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 11:08:38 AM by sc-bee » Logged

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Carol
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 12:05:40 PM »

All foundationless.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 12:24:47 PM »

On that note I apologize and retreat.......  grin  However you are asking for a mess mixing the different size frames and leaving a void space in the brood chamber.
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Carol
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 12:54:39 PM »

I figure they will build on the bottom of the frame. I think I read on Dee Lusby's Organic Beekeepers yahoo group that it could be done that way. They would build on the bottom but could it be removed later if you wanted or needed to.

The Queen didn't go up into the super that is on there and I wanted to make it easier for her or to entice her to go up. Also read they don't like to cross open spaces. Maybe I do too much reading.  huh
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sc-bee
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 02:19:58 PM »

Yes they could use the bottom of the frame as a guide and extend the comb from there similar to a top bar. It could be changed later. Maybe they will not burr the space since you have the lower part of the frame extended from the medium down into the deep. Other foundationless folks may can help you with that answer.

On the other similar post you started. Pollen coming in is a good sign from outside that all is normal inside a hive. But it alone does not mean you are necessarily queen right. 

You are most likely waiting on a new queen to be breed and start laying. As stated above you have another 2-4 weeks to find out. 2-3 weeks after the queen emerges.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 02:36:41 PM »

Yes, sc-bee has covered this, but from a primary swarm to checking, I would not expect to find a laying queen for three weeks.

As far as an empty medium frame in a deep brood nest, if the combs on each side are deeps and full drawn with brood in them, the bees will build on the bottom bar nice and straight.  But if you put two mediums together, there is no telling, they might build an angled comb spanning both frames but then they might do the same on the top bars if there is no guide and a gap equal to two frames...
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Michael Bush
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sc-bee
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 02:54:46 PM »

I will often drop a shallow drawn frame in a deep box to keep from having a totally empty space when I dont have a deep drawn frame with me. I usually move it to the outside. They will extend it down and usually fill it with honey since it is on the outside edge. I have dropped them in the center between drawn combs as MB says and they extend and lay brood in them, often drone brood depending on the time of year.

You just have to be careful turning them during inspection cause the weight on the new comb and warm temps we have this time of year cause them to easily separate from the frame if not handled properly. Staying with the right size frame even if it is foundationless sure makes life easier. But yes having a frame is definitely better than no frame at all.
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