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Author Topic: Fully drawn comb-vs.foundation or strips  (Read 2242 times)
latebee
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« on: January 14, 2006, 11:05:40 PM »

Just ran across this article which goes against the grain of some schools of thought. It explains the apparent downfall and stress placed on honeybees when using new foundation-starter strips and perhaps naturally drawn comb. I think passing this on will help some new and old beekeepers alike. It explains by the use of graphs the amount of honey that can be produced and the stress on new colonies when starting without drawn comb,it goes even further by differentiating between new and old drawn comb. the site ishttp://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm Sometimes a different point of view puts things in perspective and helps solve a few puzzles.
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thegolfpsycho
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2006, 11:53:19 PM »

The value of drawn comb has been discussed several times.  Even a few frames can make a big difference.  Number of bees, climate, foundation vs drawn comb,  are limiting factors on brood nest size.  When I start new colonys, I try to give them as much drawn comb as I can spare, and at least one frame of sealed brood for a boost.  I found that Finski's terrarium idea helped with the packages too. The brood nest expanded rapidly, and packages started in Mid April were working on their fourth deep box when the nectar dried up in late July. Those boxes will be the starts for splits and packages when we fire it up again.
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Finsky
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2006, 01:39:54 AM »

Quote from: latebee
Just ran across this article which goes against the grain of some schools of thought. It explains the apparent downfall and stress placed on honeybees when using new foundation-starter strips and perhaps naturally drawn comb. .


That is what I needed and many others too: FACTS!

We have known tens of years that

* to produce 1 kg wax bees need 8 kg honey  + plenty of pollen.

* The work is done by over 2 weeks old bees which chould forage nectar.

* One Langstroth hive need 1 kg foundations.

* 10  foundations needs another 1 kg wax so they draw combs.

---> Lagstroth box without foundations need  16 kg honey.

--->  3 box need  48 kg honey = you need not extract anything =normal surplus yield.


But bees do not make combs like that. They make them only when nectar come and they fill cells and build comb walls more.  It seem that there is now difference because  but they draw combs  only when honey comes plenty.

I must transalate article to Finnish. It makes real sence. We have schools who says that there is no difference if they draw combs or not.


Most of people do not know how animals need energy to proses things.

Question is, how many units you get protein from domestic animal when you feed it with fodder protein.

Pig, salmon and chicken are most efficient. They turn from their food protein to body protein  not moren than 50-60% to their own bodyweight.

I have seen an article that when bees proces  at autumn their syrup to winter storage they consume 30% and 70% of energy will be in storage. I do not know is it fact but it makes sence.

I have estimated during years that if hive loses 20% from its brood because of chalkbrood it is not able to gather surplus honey storage .
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 02:56:25 AM »

> It explains the apparent downfall and stress placed on honeybees when using new foundation-starter strips and perhaps naturally drawn comb

Interesting terminology to describe what bees do naturally.  "downfall and stress"?

>That is what I needed and many others too: FACTS!

Facts would be nice.

>We have known tens of years that
>* to produce 1 kg wax bees need 8 kg honey + plenty of pollen.

Actually this speculation started at about 24 pounds of honey to make one pound of wax and curently MOST of the books put this at more like 8:1.  But in reality there is no proof that I know of that any of these numbers are right.  They were, and are pure speculation.

And all of these numbers are irelevant if the bees spend more time drawing it during a flow.  I've seen research on blank unembossed sheets  and the bees drew them more quickly when they were thinner rather than thicker, despite the fact that they used all the wax on the thicker ones.  Since all the wax is used, in theory making the sheets four times as thick would save the bees four times as much work gathering the nectar to make the sheets.  But it takes them longer to make them.

From my own observation they will build comb quicker with no foundation than with foundation.  So the end result is more comb more quickly.  I don't care how much they can draw in captivity with X number of pounds of syrup (and I don't think that has ever been proven).  I care how quickly the draw them.

>* The work is done by over 2 weeks old bees which chould forage nectar.

That's why the more quickly they build them the better.  And that is why drawn comb is wonderful.  It's a place the bees can store the nectar now.  You will get more honey with drawn comb than foundation and that's an easily proven fact.

>But bees do not make combs like that. They make them only when nectar come and they fill cells and build comb walls more.

Exactly.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2006, 03:17:42 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
Actually this speculation started at about 24 pounds of honey to make one pound of wax and curently MOST of the books put this at more like 8:1. But in reality there is no proof that I know of that any of these numbers are right. They were, and are pure speculation.

.


Michael, I cant help you. These fact have measured long ago and measures give same figures.  Here is one Ingemar Fries (American Bee Journal 1981; 121(9): 651-652, 655-656): The influence of comb building before and during the main honeyflow on the swarm tendency and honey yield of honey bee colonies.


I trust on my knowledge because I get very good yields on these latitudes  Helsinki 60 North  Dergee= Alaska Anhorage.
I trust only on average yield. It tells me honestly  do I have understood the beekeeping.




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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2006, 03:40:11 AM »

Ingemar Fries (American Bee Journal 1981; 121(9): 651-652, 655-656):

Hives drawed on avegare 20 frames foundations. In the group which need not draw new combs honey yield was on average 24 kg bigger than with foundations.

20 frames is 2 boxes Langstroth.  7 kg per box = 1 kg wax.   So this supports the figure 8:1.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2006, 11:09:46 AM »

>Hives drawed on avegare 20 frames foundations. In the group which need not draw new combs honey yield was on average 24 kg bigger than with foundations.

That is the difference between drawn comb and foundation.  I totally agree with those results based on my experience.

But I'm talking about the differecne between foundation and foundationless.  My experiece is that they will draw the foundationless more quickly than the foundation.  The research I quoted above was done on blank sheets and they concluded two things that I think are significant:

1)  They use all of the wax by thinning the back of the foundation.
2)  They will draw thing sheets more quickly than thick sheets.

This seems to back up my observation that the speed of drawing is not related to the amount of wax you are providing.

They have to draw it to store nectar in it.  The quicker they draw it the more nectar they store.  They draw thinner foundation more quickly than thick foundation and, in my experince, no foundation even more quickly.  It's a nice idea to distill it down to X pounds of nectar makes Y pounds of wax, but that's not really the issue.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2006, 12:53:36 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
The quicker they draw it the more nectar they store.  They draw thinner foundation more quickly than thick foundation and, in my experince,


When I take hives to canola field I put 4 boxes empty medium frames on every hive. It it is nice weather, boxes are full after one week. It depends on weather and pastures how quickly they fill combs. To choise pastures is 100% in my hands. I have not followed in which order they do their combs.
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latebee
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2006, 09:21:50 PM »

If one were to glean anything from the site I originally posted,it would have to be this fact . To get the bees to draw anything more than 20% new comb(especially packages) when one has drawn comb would be folly. Michael I do believe that a lot of what happens in nature is very stressful,albeit has gone on for centuries. Even if it guarantees the ultimate goal of perpetuating the species. From birds building nests, and sitting on thier eggs till half starved to the beavers builing dams.The whitetail buck for example, after the mating season-he is left in such poor condition that he may not survive winter. I appreciate all your opinions as they have given me food for thought ------that is what keeps me coming back to this forum.
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 01:45:14 AM »

Quote from: latebee
From birds building nests, and sitting on thier eggs till half starved to the beavers builing dams.


(Yes, so it is. When some geese migrate to Siberian tundra at spring and if it is hard wind against movement, geese are not able to get eggs.)

Australian reports tell that if bees gather long time huge volumes honey, the basic health of colonies often collapses. They work hard and they exrecete wax. After a while brood rearing collapses.  Honey prosessing and wax exrecation needs protein and hard work and it is away from brood.

It is also usefull to read this report, what affects on bees wellfare and body building and long-livity.

Canadian Heather Mattila :  http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/nutrition.htm



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bassman1977
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2006, 05:35:53 PM »

Finsky, what are you doing with a picture of me?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  cheesy
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2006, 10:09:39 PM »

OH!!! its you Bassman, I didn',t recognize you. What have happened to you hair?
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bassman1977
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2006, 07:20:04 PM »

Steroids?
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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 12:26:45 AM »

Quote from: bassman1977
Steroids?


Thanks to heanven! Not Royal Jelly  shocked
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