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Author Topic: Federal Government (or lack of)  (Read 1450 times)
cidersabuzzin
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« on: July 18, 2013, 08:29:56 PM »

As you all seem to go on about your federal government, what would happen if it was disbanded? All states became a series of independent countries with all that entails. Each 'country' would have to provide everything that the federal  government provides, not forgeting that the population of 300m odd would have to be divided between 50 odd 'countries', where would this leave the old USA on the world stage? Become 50 odd small counties at the UN or seeking to become a 'large' dominant country again? Would the multitude of small countries wish to come together again? It looks doubtful if the leanings of a lot of the members of this forum are to be believed..... Wink
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 08:47:21 PM »


ahhh.  gotta love a Brit perspective.  you do know that most of our states are bigger than most European countries?   grin

ok, here is the way my sister has been explaining it to you guys and she says it works.  let me know.

think of the US as you would think of the EU.  many separate countries that came together originally because they knew there were some things better done as a unit than alone.  defense, currency, trade, etc.  now...picture the central government, designed to be small and limited, expanding and taking over more and more of your life and freedom. 

are you happy with what's happening with the EU?  neither are we happy with what is happening with our federal government.  the difference should be that we have more control, but now....maybe it's to late....

i read the EU constitution when it was in one of it's later drafts.  at that time, i thought it was amazingly detailed and long.  then i read our own health care bill.  it was over 3 times bigger and it was ONE bill. 

we don't need to imagine what it would be like if the feds didn't "provide".  we have that history.  we were designed to be a representative republic.  a loose allegiance of states, each doing what worked best for their own people, with a minimal federal government for those things that were not practical for separate states to do.

no one is talking about disbanding the federal government.  we are talking about them operating within the constraints of the law.  they are not currently doing that.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Fox Creek
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 09:35:14 PM »


ahhh.  gotta love a Brit perspective.  you do know that most of our states are bigger than most European countries?   grin

ok, here is the way my sister has been explaining it to you guys and she says it works.  let me know.

think of the US as you would think of the EU.  many separate countries that came together originally because they knew there were some things better done as a unit than alone.  defense, currency, trade, etc.  now...picture the central government, designed to be small and limited, expanding and taking over more and more of your life and freedom. 

are you happy with what's happening with the EU?  neither are we happy with what is happening with our federal government.  the difference should be that we have more control, but now....maybe it's to late....

i read the EU constitution when it was in one of it's later drafts.  at that time, i thought it was amazingly detailed and long.  then i read our own health care bill.  it was over 3 times bigger and it was ONE bill. 

we don't need to imagine what it would be like if the feds didn't "provide".  we have that history.  we were designed to be a representative republic.  a loose allegiance of states, each doing what worked best for their own people, with a minimal federal government for those things that were not practical for separate states to do.

no one is talking about disbanding the federal government.  we are talking about them operating within the constraints of the law.  they are not currently doing that.

    Thank you!
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 09:51:44 PM »

thank my sister.  she figured it out after beating her head against the wall trying to explain  grin

+ it only works if it makes sense to OP!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 09:55:48 PM »

>As you all seem to go on about your federal government, what would happen if it was disbanded? All states became a series of independent countries with all that entails.

That was the intent.  That's why they are called "States" and not provinces.  When we made the United States of America the constitution was written to insure that they were all sovereign states and not just provinces of a central government.  Federal government, which was intended only to "establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare" in ways that individual states could not do as well.  The Constitution spelled out the issues that the Federal government was responsible for, such as common defense, and interstate commerce so that each state was not setting tariffs from other states etc.

Unfortunately it got totally out of control and totally in violation of the 10th Amendment which says:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I would have no complaints if it was being followed.  There is certainly little of what the Federal Government now does, that was delegated by the Constitution so by far the majority of what they do is in violation of the 10th Amendment.
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Michael Bush
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 11:16:14 PM »

    I'm reading "Empire of Liberty". The book points out the difficulties of maintaining or keeping a republic. Although its true most of our founding fathers were virtuous, most state legislators quickly pursued self interest. Looks like we began to lose the republic in the late 1780's.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 11:24:45 PM »

Cidersabuzzin, you also have to keep in mind that most American bee keepers hold EXTREME right wing views that the majority of our country don’t share.  That’s why they’re not in political power anymore, and we’re not in a depression right now.  applause
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 11:30:47 PM »

Cidersabuzzin, you also have to keep in mind that most American bee keepers hold EXTREME right wing views that the majority of our country don’t share.  That’s why they’re not in political power anymore, and we’re not in a depression right now.  applause

   And I don't care if the Brits are ignorant of the ways of the Leftist. Keep repeating the lies. Its the Leftist way.
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2013, 11:48:46 PM »

the most conservative brits most closely = to our blue dog dems.  their idea of conservative and ours are very different.

Quote
Cidersabuzzin, you also have to keep in mind that most American bee keepers hold EXTREME right wing views

just out of curiosity, BlueBee...and not saying you are correct...what would you think the reasons would be?  also, how do you define "extreme"? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 03:43:20 AM »

OK, my apologies to my fellow beeks, maybe I shouldn’t have labeled ya’ll as "extreme".  My bad. Sad

However you’re certainly much further to the right than the majority of the voting public.  Why that is, I do not know huh  That is a indeed a good question.  Maybe you can educate me why beeks don’t see things like most the people in America.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 09:41:58 AM »

actually, we do see things as the voting majority does.  when people are polled on individual questions, the majority give conservative answers.  in everything from abortion to the roll of the federal government, most people are conservative.  the problem is that we have an uninvolved and uneducated population.  they get their info from the 6 pm news and make voting decisions on what they see in advertisements and how they feel about things.

we also have better than 50% of the population that take handouts from the government.  they will vote for the people/party that will continue the handouts.

even you, BlueBee, are probably more conservative than you know....you are just addicted to the big D.    grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
robk23678
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2013, 12:35:00 PM »

even you, BlueBee, are probably more conservative than you know....you are just addicted to the big D.    grin

Oh, how sometimes I wish there was a "like" button on the forums...


I don't care what anyone else does, as long as they don't interfere with my rights, try telling me what I can or can't do with my stuff, or cause me physical harm. That being said, there's too many people now who are more concerned with what everyone else is doing, instead of worrying about themselves. A significant part of the problem.
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 02:03:02 PM »

OK, my apologies to my fellow beeks, maybe I shouldn’t have labeled ya’ll as "extreme".  My bad. Sad

However you’re certainly much further to the right than the majority of the voting public.  Why that is, I do not know huh  That is a indeed a good question.  Maybe you can educate me why beeks don’t see things like most the people in America.


    The left's view of "extreme right".

    I do not think a man should be married to a man.
    I do not think children should be introduced to homosexuality at the public schools.
    I do not think public officials should be allowed to pick and chose which parts of the constitution should be protected.
    I do not thing the government has the right to take from those who have and give to the have no ts.
    I do not think the government should be dictating prices or wages.
    I do not think the government has the right to be involved in my healthcare.
    I do not think tax payers should be on the hook to bail out failed private business.
   
    We on the extreme right believe in

    Individual rights
    A small constitutional government
    low taxes

    Bluebee, what is extreme?
     
       
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2013, 02:20:20 PM »

be careful fox, they are going to come get you!   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
cidersabuzzin
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vroom... vroom... but more like phut** phut**!


« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »

OK, my apologies to my fellow beeks, maybe I shouldn’t have labeled ya’ll as "extreme".  My bad. Sad

However you’re certainly much further to the right than the majority of the voting public.  Why that is, I do not know huh  That is a indeed a good question.  Maybe you can educate me why beeks don’t see things like most the people in America.


BlueBee
I have to agree with you, but I also agree with Kathyp not all US beeks are probably not as discribed but..... it seems this forum atracts an inordinate amount of people who seem to be "just to the right of Ghengis Khan" or are they all making it up? We should all ensure we don't fall off either edge! but...(not another 'but'!) please don't vote for another GWB clone. Wink
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
Fox Creek
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2013, 04:47:02 PM »

be careful fox, they are going to come get you!   grin

    I'm prepared, cause I'm informed.     Trust!
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kathyp
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2013, 05:26:03 PM »

Quote
please don't vote for another GWB clone.

i had my issues with GWB, but he was so much better than what we now have. 

maybe if you gave some specifics about what you see as odd, we could explain better?

i think, after talking to my UK kin, that you guys are so used to having the government in every part of your life and so used to the government being there to "help" you, you don't understand why people would want to be free of that. 

you believe your government cares about you.  we believe that our government interferes with our lives.  we believe that our government, by way of it's largess, creates lazy and dependent people, who do not think past who is going to give them more stuff.  we believe it is wrong to take what one person has earned and give it to another, unless that other person is so disabled they can't earn.   

if i need someone to care about me, i have a dog. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2013, 07:49:57 PM »

OK, my apologies to my fellow beeks, maybe I shouldn’t have labeled ya’ll as "extreme".  My bad. Sad

However you’re certainly much further to the right than the majority of the voting public.  Why that is, I do not know huh  That is a indeed a good question.  Maybe you can educate me why beeks don’t see things like most the people in America.


BlueBee
I have to agree with you, but I also agree with Kathyp not all US beeks are probably not as discribed but..... it seems this forum atracts an inordinate amount of people who seem to be "just to the right of Ghengis Khan" or are they all making it up? We should all ensure we don't fall off either edge! but...(not another 'but'!) please don't vote for another GWB clone. Wink

This country was a lot better off when GWB was president then it is now. It started going down hill fast when the Dems took charge of the House and Senate in 06 and GWB started giving in to Pelosi and Reid. And then the thugs took over trashing our laws like third world dictators.
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2013, 08:28:03 PM »

OK, my apologies to my fellow beeks, maybe I shouldn’t have labeled ya’ll as "extreme".  My bad. Sad

However you’re certainly much further to the right than the majority of the voting public.  Why that is, I do not know huh  That is a indeed a good question.  Maybe you can educate me why beeks don’t see things like most the people in America.


BlueBee
I have to agree with you, but I also agree with Kathyp not all US beeks are probably not as discribed but..... it seems this forum atracts an inordinate amount of people who seem to be "just to the right of Ghengis Khan" or are they all making it up? We should all ensure we don't fall off either edge! but...(not another 'but'!) please don't vote for another GWB clone. Wink

    We here on this forum are not thin skinned. Though we are for the most part polite. Go ahead and tell us who you are accusing of being to the right of Ghengis Khan. Please explain why you believe this.
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GSF
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 02:54:27 PM »

cidersabuzzin;

You said it would be divided up into 50 different countries. There was something put out recently on how the US would split into different countries. I don't remember it all but it went something like the North East, the South East, Texas, something about California and others. It is predicted that it would split into about 5 to 7 different countries.
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