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Author Topic: More help from you handgun owners - please.  (Read 987 times)
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« on: July 11, 2013, 04:04:19 PM »

I'm asking some new things, and I'm reposting my last post for feedback in case anyone with knowledge can give input.

First, here is a description of New Jersey firearms laws concerning:

Air Soft, BB and pellets Guns

    To purchase an air gun, you must be at least 18 years of age and have a New Jersey firearms ID card. You must also have no criminal record, must pass a drug test, and prove you are within the physical and mental standards required to handle a firearm. The only exceptions to these air gun purchasing restrictions is if an individual has previously suffered from a physical or mental handicap, or alcoholism, but now has a certificate or other form of proof from a doctor or psychiatrist proving that he no longer suffers from such a disability.


I understand that they look real, if I were a cop and anyone drawled one on me, I would shoot them. That said, I have had problems finding an exact ruling on whether you actually need to use a handgun permit, besides your FID card. So, BBs, pellets, even elastic projectiles all are controlled - wondering how THAT compares to your state.

The waiting for getting my FID and handgun purchase permits is around week 7 now, I might be half way home on getting these. Then after waiting up to 7 months (I understand it is getting to be a shorter wait now that the immediate surge has curbed) but I don't expect to see these on my birthday in early August. Oh, my point was, when you finally get it, in NJ you can only buy one gun in 30 days and the permits are only good for 90 days. I'm not wanting to purchase an arsenal, just a plinker and a 9mm - making for shooting a few hundred rounds of 22 and a box of 50 9mm at the range. Make an hour or more out of the range fees.

Another rule (not the state, but generally speaking at shooting ranges) you cannot shoot alone, it is more of a buddy system - even if the buddy is an instructor or line coach. I undestand (I have read/heard) it is too lessen the chance of suiside at the range, something I thought bizarre - do you have such rules??

I'm gonna past a post I wrote in "Time for a handgun" post - I asks some questions relative to weapons you may own or have shot. I'll also add the FN FNX 9mm which has all ambi features, pretty great reviews, lighter weight that the M11-A1 (which I really can't wait to shoot) but the FNX comes with THREE 17 round mags and NJ has a 15 round limit. I have asked in many handgun forums I've joined and the best reply is that an FFL wouldn't even ship that to NJ, it is a felony to possess these mags. I have had replies suggesting making the mags PERMANENTLY fixed for 15 round capacity, but you break the law trying to confirm to it.

an email from FN says they have no solution except to buy after market mags and buy the gun from them (FN) without the stock mags. On Gunbroker, you get the gun and 3 mags for around $500 - three mags after market would be around $150 alone. It's just frustrating the more I learn.

SO HERE IS THE POST I'm COPYING from another post I wrote:

Good to be back on this topic, I read and reread everything I can here and spend all the time I can learning all I can. I visited a gunshop/range last week (2 actually but one place was out of weapons and ammo) and the better place was carrying a massive amount of weapons and a very good deal of ammo.

Both places spent time talking with me, and although you can not handle any weapon in NJ without a FID, they all but put the pistols in my hands, showing me each handgun I had interest in. I appreciated their interest in a new prospective owner and customer, especially since the latter place was busy with a load of people looking and buying.

I've moved my thinking on which semis I like as I watch more and more reviews and even more importantly, trigger in (no pun intended) on the likes and dislikes I see about each gun.

I started as you might remember looking at the Sig (and yes, I can't help it but I like the Sig line of handguns) their Sig-nightsites are impressive although wouldn't be a major factor in rejecting other handguns. The guns I've studied and got to at least look at are below and I'll give some of my thinking as my choices evolved.

I looked at the P238 .380 SAO 6rd. - a seriously tiny loosely-based 1911 CCW that comes in at 15oz. w/o mag. It seemed (before a face to face) like a nice idea, something my wife and I, both with small hands could handle easily and with the ability to rack the slide with the safety on seemed a great feature (still like that) for this SAO handgun. Frankly though, I think it too tiny, ideal maybe for CCW or second CCW but I just didn't like the size, even though recoil might be fair and the weapon is very popular, it moved to the bottom of my list when,

I started reading about the Sig P938 a 9mm bigger brother of this P239. Selling features I liked were it had a Ambidextrous safety, but as much as I like this heftier sized (still mid-size) gun, it had serious issues in earlier production, mostly with extracting 116 gr. ammo, lots of FTF, FTE, stove piping. The problem seemed to be a too weak extractor and guide spring tension - 124 gr. and up rounds seemed to have few problems. Seems for about 4 months or so Sig has addressed this issue and new owners at Firingline Forum, Youtube's many channel owners hosting hundreds and even thousand videos on all aspects of their collections, borrowed guns and Smithing of weapons - a good resource when serious gun owners have thousands of comments on videos (IMHO) but even though the break-down of the P938 (as in the P238) aren't complicated and again 1911'ee I continued looking for other handguns that seem to click with me better. Still being nowhere near buying anything, and still window shopping, I do think I've learned continually and I not much confuses me in terminology when reading/watching gun reviews.

So.... I got to see a M11-A1 (new version of the Service Pistol P228) some say its a wannabee copy of the original, but I never had the original, but the P228 has an amazing history from all I have read - nothing new to most of you, but fascinating to me.

The M11-A1 is a heavy gun weighing in at 32 ounces, chambered in 9mm, 15 round mags. decocker which does NOT place the hammer all the way down, but holding it a good 1/4" away from the firing pin, returning the gun to DA with a 10lb/4lb short reset trigger (seriously short) a learning curve PRACTICE will definitely bring confidence with. The gun also has no Picatinny rail (something I wouldn't want on a handgun, I don't see a need for laser-sight or flashlight and aesthetically I think a handgun looks more attractive without it. But personal safety wise, I know DA/SA in these cases use long first trigger pull as the main safety and I can live with that. I like DA/SA after seeing the pluses and minuses, some thinks it throws off the shooting when going from 10lb to 4lb pull - makes sense to me, but in a home invasion situation (and trust me in NJ you don't defend property only self and other) so in my home there is no long distance to have to recalculate my trigger pull - the longest run is no further than 7 yards and I sure hope to be well versed to hitting center mass when that is my longest run. with 15 rounds, I would not hesitate to fire until a threat was ceased.

All that said.

I've been really trying some things to see how a two pound HG feels, I have a re-hab weight (mini-barbell) in 2lb, also about 7 inches long, fastened a grip (don't ask - lol). and it is comfortable. I have held it for minutes and minutes imagining range time, reload time, stance, etc., and it surely is NOT out of the question. I have to say for a few weeks now the M11-A1 has been looking really nice, both at the gunshop, and through so many hours of feedback from great resources.

So, my friends

Mind you, I just thought of this, you cannot buy, sell, trade a BB-Gun or Pellet gun in NJ without a FID, it's no wonder the NRA ranks us 2nd toughest gun-law state. California and Massachusetts seems like they don't approve 95% of the handguns on the market allowed shipped into their states. But NJ at least allows shipping to FFL dealers and surprizingly, ammo can be shipped from out of state directly to the FID holder.

So I have a few questions, I know I'll get answers to all and thank you ahead of time.

1) do you own the M11-A1 or P228 and if so what are you good and bad points. Obviously the 228 is more a cosmetic comparison, although Sig does have 228 marked on the grips of the M11-A1.

I have looked at both external hammer and striker fired guns and I like the idea of seeing the hammer, not just a little rear dot indicator on some striker fired guns. I am very visual and seeing that hammer is comfort and feedback that I think will serve me well in being a safe shooter.

2) Has anyone bought/sold through www.gunbroker.com - I have to believe everyone knows about this sight with its well rated (overall) history as an auction house site. I follow it closely, learning comparisons on features, why this gun sells for that, but won't get a bid for that amount of money. It is actually fun to watch an a really quick reference for specs.

I want to add that I think I'm about 4 to 6 weeks away from FID and 2 HG Permits - the law is pretty clear I would have gotten a NO by now if I was going to be rejected. Although the same law says that gun licensing in NJ will take place within 30 days. It seems like forever, I'm at the five week mark since I filed with my PD but the finger printing was just on the 11th of June if I remember - so this could be sometime around my birthday in August I get notified (you must pick-up FIDs at local PD).

Please keep this going. Oh, and I haven't forgot a revolver, I think that should be a .22 so I have something range cost friendly, yet simple to operate, maybe not the choice home protection weapon but something that I know I can get my wife more quickly adapted to using and even bring out her competitive side leading to a sport we might both share beyond gun-handling instructional classes.

About Gunbroker, seems like an incredible service - it's fun to watch and if I weren't set on renting the weapons before trying (and I'll settle for shooting a P226 thru P229 for feel and general handling in the 9mm caliber "if" my one gun range, with a good collection doesn't have the M11-a1 - BUT after that, I will certainly take advantage of a great Gunbroker Auction - like the three I have seen this last 2 days.


The M11-A1 lists at $1200 and seeing three sell with no reserve at right at or below $700 is something I'll only pass up so long. If it ends up in my FFL dealer for 2 months, so be it. But it isn't like there is a run or limit on this gun, so such deals will come again and again - I plan on patience cause NJ likes to drag this whole process out as long as it can.

Reading so many comparisons of the Sig P228 to the M11-A1 is an apples and oranges thing. The history of the P228 is cool, having something to a Navy Aviatiors Pistol (since I launch Jets like the F-16, F-18 A/E, the awesome F-35 (Strike Force jet) and to know these men (sorry in 24 years of Civilian Service, never seen a female pilot here at Lakehurst) but to have a very much replica with several major upgrades seems very cool to me. BTW today July 5th) is my 24th anniversary working at Lakehurst, that day was without a doubt the hardest rain I likely have ever seen in my life - instructors in our week long orientation class could not yell over the pounding of rain noises for nearly an hour - literally I think it rained 5 inches that hour - 24 years ago today - okay, it's still the 4th here, but by time most read this it will be the 5th Smiley

Here is a description for you spec geeks (I like to think of myself as one, generally speaking with anything I research for purchase)

Description:

Sig Sauer M11-A1 9mm

PISTOL, COMPACT, 9MM, M11 Issued to US Naval Aviation and key units in every branch of the Armed Services, the M11 is proud to serve. Upgraded with a stainless steel slide, a Short Reset Trigger and three 15 round flush fit magazines, the M11-A1 variant features the same phosphate coated internals, SIGLITE® night sights and MIL-STD UID label of the standard-issue M11.

Specifications:
Manufacturer: SIG SAUER
Item: M11-A1
Caliber: 9mm
Action: DA/SA
Overall Length: 7.1 in
Overall Height: 5.4 in
Overall Width: 1.5 in
Barrel Length: 3.9 in
Sight Radius: 5.7 in
Weight w/Mag: 32.0 oz
Mag Capacity: 15 Rounds
Magazines: 3 (3rd Magazine is sent directly from SIG free of charge with included voucher in box due to mag shortage)
Sights: SIGLITE® Night Sights
Grips: Black Polymer Factory Grips
Frame Finish: Black Hard Anodized
Slide Finish: Nitron®
Options: Corrosion Resistant Internal Parts, Short Reset Trigger, MIL-STD UID Label, SIG Graphic Logo Engraving, 15 Round Double Stack Magazine




Actually that was TWO posts I wrote, but I had a few questions and I'm still hoping someone has the Sig P228 or M11-A1, or some other similar DA/SA hangun in the mid-size category.

Sorry if I'm brow beating anyone repeating so much, but I did add a bunch of new stuff at the top Smiley

BTW - I saw last night the M!!-A1 with three mags (new) sell for $510 - I bit my tongue and really wanted to get this into the hands of my FFL until I get my FID/permits - I doubt I'll see the M11-A1 at HALF PRICE off of the MSRP. But I am not going to buy then shoot - I at least want to fire a box of ammo into a rental as cose as I can get to it, the P226, P229 - both fairly similar in weight, bore-axis, etc.. But it gets down to, I want something I can keep loaded, cocked and locked in no longer a double action, so loaded with the heavy double pull makes sense to me and I want a decocker - I want a no-brainer fast method to get the gun back to a DA. If a choice has a safety/decocker combo latch, that too is fine. I just want redundant (probably multiple is a better word) saftety system - something my wife will handle while feeling more safe.

She has actually spend a few hours watching videos, comparing features and actually talking guns. I'm proud of her. I want her knowledged as possible in handling and making the weapon(s) safe. I'm pretty coordinated, and she is far more agile and coordinated than I am. I have no doubts she would catch on quick and practice with me dry firing, snap-caps, and at range shooting. Again, I hope it turns into a sport hobby for both of us - her competitive spirit will be my best tool in getting BOTH of us comfortable with home protection weapons as well as a fun day at the range.

Enough said, hope to get this topic rolling again.


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Keith13
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 05:27:15 PM »

sorry you as an honest law abiding person have to go through that. You do realize you could just go down in the ally and buy what you want right rolleyes

Keith
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mdax
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 05:34:47 PM »

I've used sigs for years, have a gsr, 228, 239 and 290.  I'd highly recommend sig handguns.

The laws in your state are terrible for gun owners.  I can't imagine that level of pain to play with an airgun...
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Leather Jim
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 06:03:02 PM »

Beemaster, have you considered moving?
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 08:05:34 PM »

Quote
I understand that they look real, if I were a cop and anyone drawled one on me, I would shoot them. That said, I have had problems finding an exact ruling on whether you actually need to use a handgun permit, besides your FID card. So, BBs, pellets, even elastic projectiles all are controlled - wondering how THAT compares to your state.

that's nuts

Quote
Another rule (not the state, but generally speaking at shooting ranges) you cannot shoot alone, it is more of a buddy system - even if the buddy is an instructor or line coach. I undestand (I have read/heard) it is too lessen the chance of suiside at the range, something I thought bizarre - do you have such rules??

i like shooting in the old gravel pit.  don't know of any such rule.  also nuts.  why bother going to the range to commit suicide.  stay home.
Quote
I've joined and the best reply is that an FFL wouldn't even ship that to NJ, it is a felony to possess these mags.

probably won't ship to NJ. these guys know the laws in each state and they are pretty careful  + the receiving dealer will know better.

Quote
Beemaster, have you considered moving?

ditto that!!   shocked

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robk23678
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 08:23:56 PM »

Can't answer to #1, but I particularly don't like gunbroker. too much price gouging going on. not that it isn't occuring in lots of other places.

I used to live across the bridge to the west, where the laws are much less restrictive and I could walk in to any shop, pass a 3 minute background check (which is never a problem for me) and walk out with my handgun. Then I moved out to the midwest, and, while I don't particularly agree with my current state's 3 day waiting period, I have sufficient arms that it's not urgent I get them "right away". Plus being here, I have my own shooting range here on the property.

Please consider a move to a more friendly state. Especially one that you have a chance of getting a carry permit. I might even be able to be convinced to loan my trailer to assist with moving of hives...  laugh grin
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AllenF
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 08:51:16 PM »

You need to take a road trip to here in Georgia.  Guns are plenty and no wait.   They just get you with the ammo limits since nobody has enough ammo for sale.  And my 6 year old buys his own BBs.     
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