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Author Topic: cutting foundation and using it, has anyone?  (Read 1407 times)
Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« on: July 04, 2013, 01:24:47 AM »

I was talking with someone a bit ago and after it was mentioned, it occurred to me, I have never done such a thing, but surely plenty of people have.... Who here has taken a full sheet of foundation, wired even, say for a deep, and then say cut it into four sections down the width of it. basically making a sort of 'starter strip' and used them? what happened? was it for a honey super or brood chamber?
 Has anyone used one inbetween full sheets of foundation, and has anyone used them all just by themselves?
 I mean I can guess what the results will be, in truth I already know what they will be 1) not needed, as I've gone foundationless. 2)go back to 1) but still like someone who have actually done such instead of assume, and I have never done it. I've used guide strips which is what this would be really imo, I've not bothered with guide strips and have only used the frame, I've waxed it and not waxed it. but never went with foundation strips.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 01:35:52 AM by Better.to.Bee.than.not » Logged
Finski
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2013, 01:43:22 AM »

.
Yes, I made and it was biggest mistake what I have done in frame making.
Now the combs are rubbish. They have so much brood combs.
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Dash12721
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2013, 01:46:58 AM »

I am currently doing this now.  I take and cut a long starter strip 3/4 in wide.  Using 4.9mm cell wax foundation.  Observation at present is complete draw out in deep brood box in 9 days.  Comb was straight and well defined.

Self taught at present who is currently in first year.  Currently with three hives two from April nucs and one from my first split late last month.  All hives strong and healthy as I have been slowly regressing.

Dash
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2013, 02:08:42 AM »

.
Yes, I made and it was biggest mistake what I have done in frame making.
Now the combs are rubbish. They have so much brood combs.

can you explain this a bit finski, with the language difficulties, it is hard to know if you are just joking, or?

not sure what you mean by "They have so much brood comb." does that mean they have to much brood comb, and it becomes a problem with swarming if the hive gets to big for population somehow? is your problem with it, being to much small cell or something?
please explain further.
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2013, 02:18:13 AM »

I see Michael has touched on this a bit here in the past, though ultimately seems to prefer foundationless totally:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

"How do you go foundationless?

Bees need some kind of guide to get them to draw straight comb. Any beekeeper has seen them skip the foundation and build combs between or out from the face of the comb, so we know that sometimes they ignore those clues. But a simple clue like a beveled top bar or a strip of wax or wood or even a drawn comb on each side of an empty frame will work most of the time. "~"Comb started on a blank starter strip. This natural comb was brood and was drawn by regular Carniolans that were already regressed. The cells are 4.6mm. The frames were spaced on 1 1/4" centers. One can also use strips cut from foundation"

but doesn't mention what happens if one does really.

thanks Dash12721, I figured as much really, that isn't bad time at all at what stage of the hive did you do this, just for reference.

if someone does have a box of foundation around, seems easy to quadruple it, or even more. and it wouldn't really matter if it was deep, shallow or medium.
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Finski
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 04:02:35 AM »

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Every one is able to try what happens.

Just leave one frame away from box.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 09:03:37 AM »

My first nuc box, 4 years ago, had a 2" by full length piece of plasticell in a couple of frames. I asked the seller about it and he had run out of foundation and made these frames up out of necessity. When we went to extract the honey, I did not notice these frames were any different until I held them up to the light. We cut the bottom section out for cut comb and placed the top section in the extractor. Worked real well. I have this same technique using a half inch piece. I nail the strip with 3 nails through the top board to hold them tight.
Jim
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Dash12721
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 09:57:03 AM »

Quote
thanks Dash12721, I figured as much really, that isn't bad time at all at what stage of the hive did you do this, just for reference.

Hive 1A currently has 2 deeps.  Bottom brood box inserted foundationless frame with starter strip between frames #5 & #6 (brood frames) to start pushing out the large cell frames to the edge.  Colony approx 90% in bottom box and 30% on top box.  Frame was fully drawn in 9-11 day period.

Hive 3A 1 Deep.  Same procedure as Hive 1A, same results.

Using Hive Tracks to maintain records.

Dash
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10framer
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 10:37:13 AM »

i've done it with no problems. 
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rwurster
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 03:12:10 PM »

I'm doing it now, I cut a deep piece of foundation into 4 strips and use them in my honey boxes.  The heat we have here tends to warp foundation and make it sag where the starter strips stay put.  The drawn frames in the honey supers come out really nice despite the heat and that it's new comb which is supporting quite a bit of honey.  I've never had a problem using strips.
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 04:27:26 PM »

I am using 3/4" cut comb foundation starter strip. Then I cross wire to make the comb more durable. They make the comb around the wire. The girls seem to like it so far.
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"Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking." J. C. Watts
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 04:57:58 PM »

The queen will go for the cut foundation every time.  And is what you will run into is you end up with that whole supper and all of them you put the cut foundation in all those will have brood in them.  And you wont get any honey.
 Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2013, 05:26:59 PM »

that's what i have used for starter strips in my foundationless boxes.  you don't need a wide strip.  you only need a couple of rows of cells.  you DO need to make sure it is secured well.  i use melted wax. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
10framer
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2013, 12:15:03 PM »

The queen will go for the cut foundation every time.  And is what you will run into is you end up with that whole supper and all of them you put the cut foundation in all those will have brood in them.  And you wont get any honey.
 Wink

^^^excluders solve that problem. 

kathyp is right about securing it. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2013, 01:44:39 PM »

the queen is not going to go for a frame that is empty except for a slice of foundation.  excluders may keep the queen out after the frames are drawn, but they will also discourage the workers from drawing the frames in the first place.  use the excluder if you wish, after the frames are drawn.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
danno
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2013, 01:59:20 PM »

I use 2 deep frames with 1" thin surplus starter strips along with 3 drawn brood frames in my 5 frame swarm traps.  I fasten the starter strips with a wax tube fastener.   My thoughts on this is it leaves more room in a 5 frame to take bigger swarms.  When I didn't do it this way and only put 3 drawn frames in they would fill the empty space with comb hanging from the lid and it would go to waste.  Now I can leave the swarm in the trap for a couple extra days.   When I tranferr them to a 10 frame deep they get all there comb.   
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sterling
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2013, 03:46:31 PM »

I use cut wax foundation and cut plastic foundation as starter strips in frames in the brood boxes and the honey supers and the workers draw comb in the brood boxes and the queen lays in the brood boxes and the workers draw comb and store honey in the honey supers. Works better then anything I have used. In case you want to know I cut the plastic foundation strips on a table saw three at a time.
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don2
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2013, 07:55:35 PM »

Bees will sometime repair damaged comb into drone comb. This could be what happens if you use half a sheet rather than a small strip. I never had any trouble using a strip, as long as it extends at least one half inch or so below the top of the frame. I have even tried 2 inch strips running up and down from top to bottom one on each end of the frame and one in the middle. If they are in strait the bees will continue that trend with worker cells, Mine did.  Smiley d2
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edward
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2013, 08:04:39 PM »

If you use it i hive with Young Queens or late in the season they will not make drone comb as they have littel or no use for the drone brood.

Trying to make them do it earlier in season or with old Queens will result in combs with more drone cells.


mvh Edward  tongue
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 02:27:23 PM »

I don't do them anymore because I prefer wood.  If I find a wax moth eaten comb, I just scrape it in the beeyard and put it back.  With wax, I would have to take it back to the house and wax in another strip.  But they work fine otherwise.  I cut mine with a pizza cutter and a straight edge and waxed them in with a Wax Tube Fastener or to give credit where it is due, a Van Deusen Wax-Tube Fastener.
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Michael Bush
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tjc1
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 02:18:49 PM »

Or you could use milk carton strips - free, strong, and no cell size imposed:
Scroll down to see photos of how to cut and fasten -

http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames_brood_area.php
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 11:10:18 PM by tjc1 » Logged
njfl
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 06:29:35 PM »

For those of you who do use cut foundation, do you find any difficulty in damaging the comb when extracting?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2013, 11:13:48 PM »

>For those of you who do use cut foundation, do you find any difficulty in damaging the comb when extracting?

No more than wired wax.  Any brand new comb is too soft.  Any comb with a little age works fine if you are gentle.
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Michael Bush
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njfl
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2013, 01:24:54 PM »

Thanks, Michael, that makes sense.  I've always been curious about trying this, but never have because I was worried about damaging the comb.
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Finski
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »

Bees will sometime repair damaged comb into drone comb.

I have mice in couple of hives last winter and they made big holes to combs. Then quite quickly bees made drone  combs there and one hive had half box full of drone brood. I cut them off and I think that it saved those hioves frpom varroa. There was hige amount of mites.  But if those drones become full grown, mite amount would be rise to hights.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2013, 04:11:58 AM »

Mice still get into your hives after 51 years of doing this?  Hmmmmmm

How many more years until you get the mice figured out  Smiley
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Finski
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2013, 04:37:34 AM »

Mice still get into your hives after 51 years of doing this?  Hmmmmmm

How many more years until you get the mice figured out  Smiley


Read here. Something Blue there.

http://www.bluedonut.com/jokes.htm


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