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Author Topic: air nailer for frame assembly  (Read 4242 times)
Jim 134
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2013, 07:00:05 AM »

sawdstmakr .....
  
   I still do not know what you're talking about when I and glue a joint I put glue a all sides of the joint (I use a small acid brush for this) and neither clamp it or nail it and sometimes I will screw the joint together.

acid brush is used by plumbers before soldering copper pipes may cost you a buck or two
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/218b6pF4koL._AA160_.jpg

                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Jim,
It has been mentioned to place glue in the bottom of the notch of the frames and there are videos on utube that show the same. The bottom of the notch on a frame is end grain. Any type of glue that is basically a white glue does not have any strength when the glue is placed on the end grain. White glue (titebond) is designed for gluing flat grain to flat grain.
I am trying to show that you need to make sure you are not trying to glue frames together using the end grain as your main connecting point.
Jim


Customer support (titebond) told me to use this glue is for end grain applications.
Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue

http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=a1e18a48-c721-4b0b-8f63-259c477919e0




                          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
sawdstmakr
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2013, 10:27:40 AM »

Jim,
All I am trying to say is that end grain joints with the glues we have been talking about, titebond II and III are very weak compared to the flat grain joint, putting glue on the sides of the notch. As long as you put it on the sides, the wood will break before the glue joint will. You cannot get it any stronger that that and it will still be holding it together when the nails rust out.
Jim
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Jim 134
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 10:43:16 AM »

Jim,
All I am trying to say is that end grain joints with the glues we have been talking about, titebond II and III are very weak compared to the flat grain joint, putting glue on the sides of the notch. As long as you put it on the sides, the wood will break before the glue joint will. You cannot get it any stronger that that and it will still be holding it together when the nails rust out.
Jim

All I'm saying you may like to use the right product for the situation.




                           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Santa Caras
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2013, 02:05:20 PM »

not trying to add fuel to the fire but this explanation may help. A tree has veins that run down/up with the grain. The nutrients needed are passed up from the ground to the leaves and the leaves in turn pass down the chlorphyl created from the Sun. (okay thats the biology lesson for the day) When the glue is added to the end joint, the wood basically acts like a straw. The glue is sucked (absorbed,soaked in.ect) into the wood veins where it does zero good. Very little is left behind in which to make a good bond. Ever painted an end grain and seen how it gets soaked up and can take several three coats before it even begins to look like the flat portion of the wood? Same thing.  When the glue is painted onto the FLAT portion, just about 100% of the glue is left thus making a superior bond. Thus the flat of the wood makes for a better glue surface vs the end grain.
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hiram.ga.bee.man
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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2013, 03:00:28 PM »

I have tried everything, but in the end I like an air stapler for the frames; just find that the staples make for a more rigid frame than brad nails.  I have not seen the need to glue the frames as they don't come apart for me.  I use a porter cable air nailer with 1" long staples and put two staples at each corner for a total of eight staples per frame.  IMO it is so critical to have quality solid supers that are square and stay that way.  So, the first key is to use a jig that holds everything square and keeps the joints TIGHT (even clamp the joints if needed).  All the supers are glued then screwed together with three deck mate screws per corner on a medium super.  Then the supers are stacked seven high and given three coats of a quality exterior latex paint. This gives you literally years of maintenance free equipment. For what I spend on bee equipment, paying a little extra for screws is worth every dime.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2013, 10:26:49 PM »

Hiram,
The General rule of thumb for nails is to have the nail have the shaft into the second piece of wood twice as long as the thickness of the first piece of wood being nailed. In other words, your top board is about 1/2" so you should have at least 1" of nail in the side board which means the nail should be 1 1/2" long. The reason I use the glue is that 18 Gauge nail are very thin and will probably rust out and fail in a couple of years. I use the nails to hold the wood together until the glue dries.
Jim
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hiram.ga.bee.man
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2013, 10:58:41 PM »

Thanks for the response sawdstmakr. Makes sense to me.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 02:37:38 AM »

NP
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Jim 134
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 08:35:27 AM »

not trying to add fuel to the fire but this explanation may help. A tree has veins that run down/up with the grain. The nutrients needed are passed up from the ground to the leaves and the leaves in turn pass down the chlorphyl created from the Sun. (okay thats the biology lesson for the day) When the glue is added to the end joint, the wood basically acts like a straw. The glue is sucked (absorbed,soaked in.ect) into the wood veins where it does zero good. Very little is left behind in which to make a good bond. Ever painted an end grain and seen how it gets soaked up and can take several three coats before it even begins to look like the flat portion of the wood? Same thing.  When the glue is painted onto the FLAT portion, just about 100% of the glue is left thus making a superior bond. Thus the flat of the wood makes for a better glue surface vs the end grain.


Santa Caras ......Have you tried this product and yes I have used ALL of these products
Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
Titebond
Titebond  II
Titebond  III
IMHO sawdstmakr was looking for a fight not a discussion
Customer suport (titebond) told me to use this glue is for end grain applications.

Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=a1e18a48-c721-4b0b-8f63-259c477919e0

youtube
http://youtu.be/ER1k4Pcyn0M




                                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:47:23 AM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
RHBee
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2013, 09:17:04 AM »

There are times when I really don't understand why members of this forum want to argue or get into a fight over what seems to be matters of choice or personal opinions.
I personally attempt to utilize the vast diversity of opinion,  experience and knowledge which members here are generous enough to freely share.
In the end, when I throw out an inquiry it's because I'm not sure what to do next. It's the differences in methods that help me the most.
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Later,
Ray
Jim 134
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2013, 01:13:37 PM »

 th_thumbsupup goodpost th_thumbsupup


             

                          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Jim 134
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2013, 01:23:47 PM »

Hiram,
The General rule of thumb for nails is to have the nail have the shaft into the second piece of wood twice as long as the thickness of the first piece of wood being nailed. In other words, your top board is about 1/2" so you should have at least 1" of nail in the side board which means the nail should be 1 1/2" long. The reason I use the glue is that 18 Gauge nail are very thin and will probably rust out and fail in a couple of years. I use the nails to hold the wood together until the glue dries.
Jim

   I have never seen or heard of this scenario ever happening. I do have some frames that are over 40 years old nails only (1-1/4" 18 Gauge) and this has never happened to me or any beekeeper I know and yes I am had bears take some apart for me Sad and the nails are not rusted out.  



                                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 10:44:08 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
hiram.ga.bee.man
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2013, 08:07:06 PM »

Well said RHBee. Your expressions regarding the variety of opinions from persons who enjoy beekeeping is what makes this forum so great.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2013, 11:28:25 PM »

not trying to add fuel to the fire but this explanation may help. A tree has veins that run down/up with the grain. The nutrients needed are passed up from the ground to the leaves and the leaves in turn pass down the chlorphyl created from the Sun. (okay thats the biology lesson for the day) When the glue is added to the end joint, the wood basically acts like a straw. The glue is sucked (absorbed,soaked in.ect) into the wood veins where it does zero good. Very little is left behind in which to make a good bond. Ever painted an end grain and seen how it gets soaked up and can take several three coats before it even begins to look like the flat portion of the wood? Same thing.  When the glue is painted onto the FLAT portion, just about 100% of the glue is left thus making a superior bond. Thus the flat of the wood makes for a better glue surface vs the end grain.

Jim,

Santa Caras ......Have you tried this product and yes I have used ALL of these products
Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
Titebond
Titebond  II
Titebond  III
IMHO sawdstmakr was looking for a fight not a discussion
Customer suport (titebond) told me to use this glue is for end grain applications.

Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=a1e18a48-c721-4b0b-8f63-259c477919e0

youtube
http://youtu.be/ER1k4Pcyn0M




                                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley



Jim
I was not trying to pick a fight. Not my nature.
I was trying to explains the importance of glueing the flat grain to flat grain and obviously did not explain it very well and was trying to get my the point across. A lot of Beekeepers that read these post do not have a wood working back ground and I was just trying to explain what work best.
As far as the nails rusting, I reuse a lot of wood on my farm and I find a lot of 12 penny nails totally rusted out long before they should be failing. 18 gauge finish nails are a whole lot smaller than 12 penny nails. I have never had a frame fail but then again this is only my fourth year and I never depend upon the nails for holding them together.
I apologize for coming across as trying to pick a fight.
I teach the same wood working techniques to our new beeks in our club because I think it is important concept to understand.
Jim
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Jim 134
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« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 03:59:51 AM »

Is this joint strong enough for you.
http://ferrisapiaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/monkey.jpg

http://ferrisapiaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/image010.jpg

And the bottom board does NOT have to be glued.



                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:14:46 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
hiram.ga.bee.man
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« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 08:15:01 AM »

Jim 134, that link illustrates your point very well.   shocked
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Santa Caras
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2013, 03:50:56 PM »

This is a good discussion. I didnt think Sawdstmaker was lookin to argue. He's been very helpful in all his posts that I've read.
I did watch youtube  this weekend and a gentleman name of FatBeeMan had an intresting way of assembling frames with no glue and using the saw table as a square. I thought the use of fishingline instead of wire and the use of hair bobby pins in place of foundation pins was intresting.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2013, 04:20:51 PM »

I personally will never use fishingline again I did about 100 frames and of bees did not like to inbed it. I have use bobby pins for about 25 years and they work well.  I only been gluing bee hive parts for about the lasts 20 years IMHO I think it's worth it. You do need to use the right glue for the proper application.




                                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley 
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Martinlawrence
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2013, 01:53:24 AM »

When the plumbing system of a swimming pool is leaking one of the first diagnostic tests that a professional will perform is a pressure test. During this process the plumbing lines of the pool are isolated and independently tested to determine their ability to hold pressure without leaking. Swimming pool plumbing system pressure testing is only as accurate as the person performing the testing.
Tom Plumb

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Jim 134
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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2013, 09:58:11 AM »

When the plumbing system of a swimming pool is leaking one of the first diagnostic tests that a professional will perform is a pressure test. During this process the plumbing lines of the pool are isolated and independently tested to determine their ability to hold pressure without leaking. Swimming pool plumbing system pressure testing is only as accurate as the person performing the testing.
Tom Plumb



IMHO You are hopelessly lost.
What does this have to do with bee keeping  huh




                  BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
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