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Author Topic: air nailer for frame assembly  (Read 4822 times)
Sour Kraut
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« on: June 27, 2013, 11:03:09 AM »

OK, I'm open to suggestions

What do YOU use and any complaints or praise ?

Thanks to all in advance

the S K


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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 11:11:11 AM »

I use a finish nailer with 1 1/4 inch long #18 gauge nails. I don't know ho manufactures it, I have had it for about 20 years now.
Jim
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 12:33:56 PM »

I use 1/4 crown staples 1 inch long and glue.  In my opinion glue titebond II is the most important.  I apply glue with a acid brush to the tops and bottoms of the end bars.  I lay a top bar upside down on the bench and push on the two glued end bars.  With a small square I square one of the end and shoot a staple angled through the end bar, into the top bar.  Repete with the other side.  I then install my plastic foundation and a bottom bar and shoot a staple through both ends of the bottom, into the end bars.  Frame done.  When the glue dries they NEVER break at a joint
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 12:35:52 PM »

I should add the my Menards stapler cost under 30.00 five years and a couple of 1000 frames ago.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2013, 01:01:02 PM »

I use the 1" long 1/4" crown staples too.  But a brad nailer would work with 1" or longer brads.  The other nice thing about the crown stapler is it works ok for boxes with 1 1/2" or longer staples.  Mine won't take longer than 1 1/2" but that is sufficient.  Any shorter is not sufficient...

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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 03:56:47 PM »

another thing the staples have over the brad nailer is each one is like shooting 2 brads.  My cheap stapler can only handle 1inch long which is just right for frames.   I can see the benefit having one that would shoot 1 1/2.   That would make boxes, covers and about everything else go quicker.  Again though use a good glue.  the nails or staples only hold the pc's together long enough for the glue to dry.    One of the things that  bother me the most in bee keeping is prying a frame out of a active colony and have it come apart.  Its a mess. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 04:17:13 PM »

and it's therapeutic!!   evil

do get one that does nails and staples and will take the longer.  my first was not so good, but the second one i have had long time and it's great.  i think it was from Harbor Freight and not to expensive.
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2013, 09:52:18 PM »

I use the Harbor Freight brad nailer/crown stapler. It will shoot up to 1 1/2 staples but it doesn't have the power to shoot them if the wood is on the hard side. So I use my 15 gauge finish nailer on boxes.
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 08:57:59 PM »

I use the Bostic crown stapler/brad nailer combination tool. The drawback to this toolis that it uses bostic 7/32" instead of normal 1/4".  It came with my finishing nailer. For boxes I use a Griptite 7/16" stapler and 1 1/2" staples. TiteBond3 just cause.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2013, 09:29:47 PM »

Keep in mind, eventually the nails will rust out, they are only 18 gauge. The glue will last longer than the wood unless the frames are left submerged in water for a couple days. Tight bond glue is designed to work on flat plained wood not end grain. It will work well on cuts up to 45 degrees. Putting glue in the bottom of the cut on the sides pieces does little good. It needs to be on the sides, flat wood to flat wood. I have done the tests, there is a big difference.
Jim
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 10:07:56 AM »

sawdstmakr.........

What tests are you talking about  Huh




                      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 07:01:39 PM »

sawdstmakr.........

What tests are you talking about  Huh




                      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 12:02:27 AM »

sawdstmakr.........

What tests are you talking about  Huh




                      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Take one frame and using just glue, put the glue in the button of the notch's, end grain to flat cut wood and then take one frame and put the glue on just on the sides where you have flat cut wood to flat cut wood. Let them both dry for 24 hours. Then take the first one and stress it by pushing on the top bar on one end and push the bottom bar on the other end. The first one will fail quickly if you only have glue on the end grain. Put the same stress on the other frame and you will find it will not fail. Add a little more and it still will not fail. I usually stop there so that I do not destroy a perfectly good frame because the wood will probable break before the glue joint does. You can then take the other frame and re glue it like the other one and it will be just fine.

I did this demonstration for our bee club and let the students see for them selves the difference.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 10:36:01 PM »

sawdstmakr .....
  
   I still do not know what you're talking about when I and glue a joint I put glue a all sides of the joint (I use a small acid brush for this) and neither clamp it or nail it and sometimes I will screw the joint together.

acid brush is used by plumbers before soldering copper pipes may cost you a buck or two
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/218b6pF4koL._AA160_.jpg



                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
sawdstmakr
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 01:01:53 AM »

sawdstmakr .....
  
   I still do not know what you're talking about when I and glue a joint I put glue a all sides of the joint (I use a small acid brush for this) and neither clamp it or nail it and sometimes I will screw the joint together.

acid brush is used by plumbers before soldering copper pipes may cost you a buck or two
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/218b6pF4koL._AA160_.jpg

                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Jim,
It has been mentioned to place glue in the bottom of the notch of the frames and there are videos on utube that show the same. The bottom of the notch on a frame is end grain. Any type of glue that is basically a white glue does not have any strength when the glue is placed on the end grain. White glue (titebond) is designed for gluing flat grain to flat grain.
I am trying to show that you need to make sure you are not trying to glue frames together using the end grain as your main connecting point.
Jim
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danno
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 07:14:36 AM »

As I stated earlier I use titebond II and a acid brush.   I grab a bundle of 10 end bars and with the brush, I apply to the bottoms and sides of all the groves both top and bottom.   I like to see enough glue that when I push the end down on a top the some pushes out the sides.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 07:39:02 AM »

Are you also telling the you do not double glue end grain some may call it priming the joint  Huh
Are you tell me you do not put glue on all sides of the joints Huh  
If not why not Huh
Or are you like the State Farm® commercial they cannot put anything on the Internet that is not true Huh


http://youtu.be/rmx4twCK3_I

 lau lau lau lau



                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Joe D
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 11:07:56 AM »

I use a 1/4 in 18 gauge stapler, it can use up to 1 1/2 " staples.  I use it for frames and supers, with a little glue.  I got mine from CPO outlet near Atlanta.  They have reconditioned and new, mine was new but in an open box.  Every thing was there, it is an Hitachi, can't remember exactly but was around $65.  Good luck with what ever you choose.




Joe
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 11:21:08 PM »

Are you also telling the you do not double glue end grain some may call it priming the joint  Huh
Are you tell me you do not put glue on all sides of the joints Huh  
If not why not Huh


                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Jim,
What I am saying is that if you depend on the end grain joint to provide the strength, in the long run it will fail. I glue the side tabs and the sides of the top and bottom boards. This glues flat grain to flat grain and the wood will fail before the glue joint.

Try doing the test and you will see what I mean.
Jim
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capt44
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2013, 09:16:50 PM »

When putting boxes together I use a Campbell Hausfield air nailer I bought online from CPO outlets.
I use 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 inch brad nails and Tite Bond II glue.
I put the boxes together in a jig I built so they'll be square.
I've built around 450 boxes this season so far and have had no complaints.
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Richard Vardaman (capt44)
Jim 134
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2013, 07:00:05 AM »

sawdstmakr .....
  
   I still do not know what you're talking about when I and glue a joint I put glue a all sides of the joint (I use a small acid brush for this) and neither clamp it or nail it and sometimes I will screw the joint together.

acid brush is used by plumbers before soldering copper pipes may cost you a buck or two
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/218b6pF4koL._AA160_.jpg

                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Jim,
It has been mentioned to place glue in the bottom of the notch of the frames and there are videos on utube that show the same. The bottom of the notch on a frame is end grain. Any type of glue that is basically a white glue does not have any strength when the glue is placed on the end grain. White glue (titebond) is designed for gluing flat grain to flat grain.
I am trying to show that you need to make sure you are not trying to glue frames together using the end grain as your main connecting point.
Jim


Customer support (titebond) told me to use this glue is for end grain applications.
Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue

http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=a1e18a48-c721-4b0b-8f63-259c477919e0




                          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
sawdstmakr
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2013, 10:27:40 AM »

Jim,
All I am trying to say is that end grain joints with the glues we have been talking about, titebond II and III are very weak compared to the flat grain joint, putting glue on the sides of the notch. As long as you put it on the sides, the wood will break before the glue joint will. You cannot get it any stronger that that and it will still be holding it together when the nails rust out.
Jim
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 10:43:16 AM »

Jim,
All I am trying to say is that end grain joints with the glues we have been talking about, titebond II and III are very weak compared to the flat grain joint, putting glue on the sides of the notch. As long as you put it on the sides, the wood will break before the glue joint will. You cannot get it any stronger that that and it will still be holding it together when the nails rust out.
Jim

All I'm saying you may like to use the right product for the situation.




                           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2013, 02:05:20 PM »

not trying to add fuel to the fire but this explanation may help. A tree has veins that run down/up with the grain. The nutrients needed are passed up from the ground to the leaves and the leaves in turn pass down the chlorphyl created from the Sun. (okay thats the biology lesson for the day) When the glue is added to the end joint, the wood basically acts like a straw. The glue is sucked (absorbed,soaked in.ect) into the wood veins where it does zero good. Very little is left behind in which to make a good bond. Ever painted an end grain and seen how it gets soaked up and can take several three coats before it even begins to look like the flat portion of the wood? Same thing.  When the glue is painted onto the FLAT portion, just about 100% of the glue is left thus making a superior bond. Thus the flat of the wood makes for a better glue surface vs the end grain.
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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2013, 03:00:28 PM »

I have tried everything, but in the end I like an air stapler for the frames; just find that the staples make for a more rigid frame than brad nails.  I have not seen the need to glue the frames as they don't come apart for me.  I use a porter cable air nailer with 1" long staples and put two staples at each corner for a total of eight staples per frame.  IMO it is so critical to have quality solid supers that are square and stay that way.  So, the first key is to use a jig that holds everything square and keeps the joints TIGHT (even clamp the joints if needed).  All the supers are glued then screwed together with three deck mate screws per corner on a medium super.  Then the supers are stacked seven high and given three coats of a quality exterior latex paint. This gives you literally years of maintenance free equipment. For what I spend on bee equipment, paying a little extra for screws is worth every dime.
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2013, 10:26:49 PM »

Hiram,
The General rule of thumb for nails is to have the nail have the shaft into the second piece of wood twice as long as the thickness of the first piece of wood being nailed. In other words, your top board is about 1/2" so you should have at least 1" of nail in the side board which means the nail should be 1 1/2" long. The reason I use the glue is that 18 Gauge nail are very thin and will probably rust out and fail in a couple of years. I use the nails to hold the wood together until the glue dries.
Jim
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2013, 10:58:41 PM »

Thanks for the response sawdstmakr. Makes sense to me.
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 02:37:38 AM »

NP
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 08:35:27 AM »

not trying to add fuel to the fire but this explanation may help. A tree has veins that run down/up with the grain. The nutrients needed are passed up from the ground to the leaves and the leaves in turn pass down the chlorphyl created from the Sun. (okay thats the biology lesson for the day) When the glue is added to the end joint, the wood basically acts like a straw. The glue is sucked (absorbed,soaked in.ect) into the wood veins where it does zero good. Very little is left behind in which to make a good bond. Ever painted an end grain and seen how it gets soaked up and can take several three coats before it even begins to look like the flat portion of the wood? Same thing.  When the glue is painted onto the FLAT portion, just about 100% of the glue is left thus making a superior bond. Thus the flat of the wood makes for a better glue surface vs the end grain.


Santa Caras ......Have you tried this product and yes I have used ALL of these products
Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
Titebond
Titebond  II
Titebond  III
IMHO sawdstmakr was looking for a fight not a discussion
Customer suport (titebond) told me to use this glue is for end grain applications.

Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=a1e18a48-c721-4b0b-8f63-259c477919e0

youtube
http://youtu.be/ER1k4Pcyn0M




                                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:47:23 AM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
RHBee
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2013, 09:17:04 AM »

There are times when I really don't understand why members of this forum want to argue or get into a fight over what seems to be matters of choice or personal opinions.
I personally attempt to utilize the vast diversity of opinion,  experience and knowledge which members here are generous enough to freely share.
In the end, when I throw out an inquiry it's because I'm not sure what to do next. It's the differences in methods that help me the most.
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2013, 01:13:37 PM »

 th_thumbsupup goodpost th_thumbsupup


             

                          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2013, 01:23:47 PM »

Hiram,
The General rule of thumb for nails is to have the nail have the shaft into the second piece of wood twice as long as the thickness of the first piece of wood being nailed. In other words, your top board is about 1/2" so you should have at least 1" of nail in the side board which means the nail should be 1 1/2" long. The reason I use the glue is that 18 Gauge nail are very thin and will probably rust out and fail in a couple of years. I use the nails to hold the wood together until the glue dries.
Jim

   I have never seen or heard of this scenario ever happening. I do have some frames that are over 40 years old nails only (1-1/4" 18 Gauge) and this has never happened to me or any beekeeper I know and yes I am had bears take some apart for me Sad and the nails are not rusted out.  



                                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 10:44:08 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
hiram.ga.bee.man
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2013, 08:07:06 PM »

Well said RHBee. Your expressions regarding the variety of opinions from persons who enjoy beekeeping is what makes this forum so great.
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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2013, 11:28:25 PM »

not trying to add fuel to the fire but this explanation may help. A tree has veins that run down/up with the grain. The nutrients needed are passed up from the ground to the leaves and the leaves in turn pass down the chlorphyl created from the Sun. (okay thats the biology lesson for the day) When the glue is added to the end joint, the wood basically acts like a straw. The glue is sucked (absorbed,soaked in.ect) into the wood veins where it does zero good. Very little is left behind in which to make a good bond. Ever painted an end grain and seen how it gets soaked up and can take several three coats before it even begins to look like the flat portion of the wood? Same thing.  When the glue is painted onto the FLAT portion, just about 100% of the glue is left thus making a superior bond. Thus the flat of the wood makes for a better glue surface vs the end grain.

Jim,

Santa Caras ......Have you tried this product and yes I have used ALL of these products
Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
Titebond
Titebond  II
Titebond  III
IMHO sawdstmakr was looking for a fight not a discussion
Customer suport (titebond) told me to use this glue is for end grain applications.

Titebond No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue
http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=a1e18a48-c721-4b0b-8f63-259c477919e0

youtube
http://youtu.be/ER1k4Pcyn0M




                                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley



Jim
I was not trying to pick a fight. Not my nature.
I was trying to explains the importance of glueing the flat grain to flat grain and obviously did not explain it very well and was trying to get my the point across. A lot of Beekeepers that read these post do not have a wood working back ground and I was just trying to explain what work best.
As far as the nails rusting, I reuse a lot of wood on my farm and I find a lot of 12 penny nails totally rusted out long before they should be failing. 18 gauge finish nails are a whole lot smaller than 12 penny nails. I have never had a frame fail but then again this is only my fourth year and I never depend upon the nails for holding them together.
I apologize for coming across as trying to pick a fight.
I teach the same wood working techniques to our new beeks in our club because I think it is important concept to understand.
Jim
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« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 03:59:51 AM »

Is this joint strong enough for you.
http://ferrisapiaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/monkey.jpg

http://ferrisapiaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/image010.jpg

And the bottom board does NOT have to be glued.



                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:14:46 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 08:15:01 AM »

Jim 134, that link illustrates your point very well.   shocked
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2013, 03:50:56 PM »

This is a good discussion. I didnt think Sawdstmaker was lookin to argue. He's been very helpful in all his posts that I've read.
I did watch youtube  this weekend and a gentleman name of FatBeeMan had an intresting way of assembling frames with no glue and using the saw table as a square. I thought the use of fishingline instead of wire and the use of hair bobby pins in place of foundation pins was intresting.
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2013, 04:20:51 PM »

I personally will never use fishingline again I did about 100 frames and of bees did not like to inbed it. I have use bobby pins for about 25 years and they work well.  I only been gluing bee hive parts for about the lasts 20 years IMHO I think it's worth it. You do need to use the right glue for the proper application.




                                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley 
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2013, 01:53:24 AM »

When the plumbing system of a swimming pool is leaking one of the first diagnostic tests that a professional will perform is a pressure test. During this process the plumbing lines of the pool are isolated and independently tested to determine their ability to hold pressure without leaking. Swimming pool plumbing system pressure testing is only as accurate as the person performing the testing.
Tom Plumb

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Jim 134
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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2013, 09:58:11 AM »

When the plumbing system of a swimming pool is leaking one of the first diagnostic tests that a professional will perform is a pressure test. During this process the plumbing lines of the pool are isolated and independently tested to determine their ability to hold pressure without leaking. Swimming pool plumbing system pressure testing is only as accurate as the person performing the testing.
Tom Plumb



IMHO You are hopelessly lost.
What does this have to do with bee keeping  huh




                  BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
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« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2013, 07:29:16 PM »

Thanks Jim. I was wondering the same thing.
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Later,
Ray
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