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Author Topic: OTS method after splitting  (Read 6092 times)
KD4MOJ
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« on: June 25, 2013, 11:43:38 AM »

Just curious if anyone has done this... I'm thinking about doing the OTS (where you notch cells) method of queen rearing after splitting the hive. I know that the method that I've watched the video.. notches the cells  in the parent colony to produce queen cells after the queen is removed.

Since some make splits with no queen and just the eggs/larvae, I figured that this method might speed up the process of queen cell making in the queenless nuc.

Any thoughts?

...DOUG
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don2
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 01:26:30 PM »

My top box on a 10 frame medium had about 5 frames of capped brood with two frames of eggs/brood. I put it on it's own bottom board just like it was and added another empty to the mother colony. I had 8 queen cells in less than 7 days, one already capped. I did not notch the larvae cells. I split that box into two mating nucs this past Friday.  If you take 2 or 3 frames of capped brood with bees on, one frame of eggs and newly hatching brood, then one frame with pollen and honey, no reason why they shouldn't make cells.

or if you have a colony like Mine and you are not going to get any honey from it, move the whole box.. be sure and put an empty where you take one from. I didn't even know which box the queen was not in till I found the queen cells.

I don't know about all this, do this, don't do that. Queen less colonies will make queen cells if they have eggs/larvae. About all I see needs to be done is space control. Don't put 5 frames of bees in a 10 frame box to make queen cells. Like M B said, load the box up with bees.
my .02  :)d2
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nietssemaj
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 02:09:02 PM »

I haven't done it. My bees this years seem to be willing to make more then enough queens as it is.

That said, it seems like a reasonable thing. From my reading the idea is that the queen will be able to develop better than in an 'emergency cell' that was drawn off a normal cell since the bottom is cut open. Though I have no real data to back that feeling.
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KD4MOJ
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 02:58:43 PM »

@don2:

This will be just an experiment... since I've made many splits... just curious if they will build the queen cells faster by notching the larvae.. and to see if anyone else that done the experiment before.

...DOUG
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don2
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 03:33:02 PM »

I made my split on Friday and had a sealed cell on Wednesday. That was fast enough for me.two  hatched on day 13 from the day I made my split. Don't know if they may have started a supersede cell in the mother colony or not. havent checked it out really good since I made the split. She had started laying in the second box again.  Smiley d2
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 02:56:30 AM »

the OTS method is a system for management really, not just specifically for queens.  with OTS the idea is to force queen cell development and have the hive go into a false swarm situation. that being said, it can still be used for making queens. It is obvious bees know how to make queen cells, and also know how to make queens, they do it all the time. but beeks are bee keepers, not "Let bees be bees just because they can." with OTS the interest is in timing and attempted control. That is why you notch. you do it two notches generally on each side of multiple frames to promote the queens cells in those specific locations and with adequate numbers.

it is a common practice, even without doing specifically the TS system. observe this video at the 30 minute mark:
http://youtu.be/inGtBz0LB2I

Some say there is no need to...no argument, but then again there also is no need not to, either. if worse comes to worse and you do not do it right, whatever you lose a whole maybe 10 bees from it not being born.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 03:22:44 AM »

Doug,
If your hive has new comb, then the bees have no trouble removing the wax around the cells that they decide to use to make a queen. If the wax is older, then the OTS system makes it much easier for the bees to make a proper queen cell.
I watched my bees in my observation hive have trouble making queen cells, 2 years ago, because the frames were very old. They came with my original nucs. The bees destroyed all of the q cells, one by one. They were all to small. I had to add a new frame of eggs and brood.
I used the OTS system this year after making a dozen nucs and it worked very well. I made 2 slots in each nuc.
Jim
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 03:34:57 AM »

actually didn't even really think about that. well said sawdstmakr for mentioning something I totally left out.

 
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 03:42:24 AM »

actually didn't even really think about that. well said sawdstmakr for mentioning something I totally left out.

 
No problem BTB.
My OB has helped to see what really happens inside of the hive. Oops, I should have said , my wife's OB hive. It is that one that she said would never bee in her house.  grin
Jim
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Oblio13
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 08:04:21 AM »

Don't see how it could make anything 'faster'. Queen cells are going to be capped on the 8th day no matter what. My understanding is that it just makes old wax with embedded cocoons easier for the workers to chew and reform.
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 04:13:23 AM »

well that would be faster wouldn't it? but the OTS method also has the advantage of sort of pushing them to accept older or even younger larva than they normally would too I think. typically they want 2 day, but it spurs them to accept 3 day or more even I think, as I have known people who have notched such and had them draw out queencells from them.

http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/IBA%20Keynote%20part%201.pdf
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Oblio13
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 01:45:25 PM »

well that would be faster wouldn't it? ...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but no, the 8th day will still be the 8th day.
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samsungpizza
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 12:33:34 AM »

I pulled my queen and a couple frames of sealed brood from my 8 frame observation hive, and put them in a nuc in the bee yard. I notched a couple frames in the observation hive and all went as Mel describes. I'm still grafting, but it was neat to see. The hive gave out quite a roar when she left for mating flight(s).
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 11:39:03 PM »

yep yep. it works...and that is all that is needed...people do not really have to understand it, really, but it works.
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don2
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »

No one mentioned the OTS method Helps to break the brood cycle of the Varoa mites by removing the queen. This way you get a  2 fer.
The reason I went with removing the added box was because it was a first year hive to begin with. I plan on doing the OTS with these three colonies about the last week in March 2014, if they make it through the winter ok.  Smiley d2
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Sparky
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 07:19:38 PM »

Doug,
If your hive has new comb, then the bees have no trouble removing the wax around the cells that they decide to use to make a queen. If the wax is older, then the OTS system makes it much easier for the bees to make a proper queen cell.
I used the OTS system this year after making a dozen nucs and it worked very well. I made 2 slots in each nuc.
Jim

I think Jim is 100% correct. I just finished doing the notched frames in mine and a friends hives. Some of the newer wax brood frames in mine, were repaired where the notches were made and they made queen cells in other places. All of the older frames in my friends hives, made queen cells where I notched and some additional cells on other frames.
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 08:19:36 PM »

ya the notching isn't really nothing to do with OTS.... it is just 'a thing' that is done. OTS is on the spot queen rearing. The notching isn't the theme of it, it is a system. Notch or don't doesn't matter. but there isn't a need for grafting and it's done really easy as a system for a personal beekeeper that works to prevent swarming, disrupt the mite cycle and split and grow hives and produce queens.
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rwlaw
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 06:24:58 PM »

When I asked Mel about the bees ignoring my notching, he said " the bees make the best decision, your giving them more choices". Which makes sense, if your going to make splits, you don't want all the cells on one frame.
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tefer2
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2014, 10:08:02 AM »

rw, has Mel gave his planter dust talk to you folks up there?
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Vance G
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2014, 11:15:33 AM »

I believe the notching is indeed a big part of it.  Notching a correct age larvae causes the bees to treat the larvae as a queen cell.  By notching, the bees are better able to enlarge the worker cell into proper queen rearing size and don't have to waste royal jelly floating the larvae into a more commodious space.  That enhances the larvae's nutrition and that is what it is all about. 
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2014, 05:13:27 AM »

I believe the notching is indeed a big part of it.  Notching a correct age larvae causes the bees to treat the larvae as a queen cell.  By notching, the bees are better able to enlarge the worker cell into proper queen rearing size and don't have to waste royal jelly floating the larvae into a more commodious space.  That enhances the larvae's nutrition and that is what it is all about. 
Vance,
At the bee college this past weekend, they talked about that and the fact that the queen larva cannot use the royal jelly that is also in the horizontal section of the cell. Like you said, it is just to float it out.
Also the cell that is open to the bottom tells the bees that that cell should bee a queen cell.
Jim
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 08:31:42 PM »

ya, back then I didn't really say it clearly perhaps. when I said "The notching isn't the theme of it" I meant just that.... many people still do OTS without notching. and There are arguments for both to do and not to do. I've always supported doing, but it is two separate things imo. there is OTS, and then there are the methods of OTS one of which is using notching in it was really my point with that statement.
 but yep...it's getting time to start thinking about and making plans for implementation. More so for other areas then in Michigan here, but we're right there also.
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Vance G
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2014, 07:43:52 PM »

The notching is such an integral part of OTS queen rearing that I personally cannot separate them.  The thing I like best about the whole deal is that I maintain a broad gene pool and by splitting off the queen and notching cells, I reproduce every colony not culled for poor production, chalkbrood (example), undesireably defensiveness or other fatal flaw.  I have two wonderful successfully overwintered hives that are going to be turned in to splits with a notched frame from my best other hives because I don't need a war party coming after me as soon as I pop a lid.  But the good average colonies get their genetics passed on.  I don't want to have all my eggs coming from the same narrow gene pool. 
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 04:00:55 AM »

I am totally not getting what you are saying... Are you somehow saying that the new queen somehow doesn't get fertilized by random drones somehow if you do not notch, therefor you would be stuck with a narrow gene pool or something? I do not see it as a integral part of it to the point of not being able to separate them.
 I also do not understand how you are saying notching is a integral part of the OTS system. How do you think it is integral that deep exactly? I like notching myself. I like it because I believe it does help make queen cells and you can make multiple ones on multiple frames for splitting, with greater control.... but OTS imo is to reproduce hives and break the mite cycle mostly (Which is what I use it for, along with dusting with powdered sugar during the down time.) All the new queens are going to go get fertilized by outside genetics anyways on their mating flights, unless you are doing manual fertilization, I've never done it myself.
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