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Author Topic: Is 9 frame spacing a "natural" queen excluder?  (Read 1735 times)
ThomasGR
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« on: June 23, 2013, 04:52:50 PM »

Hello,
Did anyone noticed "difficulty" of the queen to lay eggs with 9 or even 8 frame spacing to supers. I am trying to find ways to avoid queen excluders.
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don2
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 04:59:46 PM »

No relation. d2
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 06:12:28 PM »

Hello,
Did anyone noticed "difficulty" of the queen to lay eggs with 9 or even 8 frame spacing to supers. I am trying to find ways to avoid queen excluders.

it does not work. mad idea- 8 spacing spoils the combs. They are too long to extract. And propably not easy to bees to use.

I do not use excluder. I use 3 langstroths as brood.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2013, 11:36:11 PM »

I’ve gotta agree with Finski again.  While you’re hypothesis sounds good, the problem in the field is the bees tend to comb out those widely spaced frames in a wonky fashion.  That gives the bees the ability to raise some drones up there.  Like Finski, I don’t use excluders and my supers aren’t always perfect.  I do have a drone layer above the brood box to allow the queen room for the drones she wants and I think that helps.
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D Coates
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 05:20:53 PM »

I'm using 8 frames this year and they are drawing more bridge comb that when I was going with 9.  However, with 9 I found there were low spots that I had to go after with a cappings fork as the knife couldn't get there.  I wanted to avoid that this year so I went with 8 drawn frames per 10 frame super. 

The most effective way I found to keep the queen out of the supers is to make sure there's a honey barrier above her and the broodnest doesn't get backfilled.  The best way I've found to to do this is to keep an eye on the hives need for additional supers and add accordingly.
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Finski
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 09:41:18 PM »

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8 frames in 10 frames box.

What I saw was that in extracting combs damaged badly. Bees must work hard to get the combs and cell walls to condition.

It seemed bad, but it is very easy to everybody top look, what happens.
But there is no such word in beekeeping like "natural laying excluder".
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ThomasGR
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2013, 02:36:24 AM »

Initially i noticed that at the time i had 8 frames ( i just removed them and had not other to put ) the queen was not laying there and new honey placed. A few days later i placed 2 frames with foundation making them 10 and the queen placed eggs in 3 frames so far. Maybe it was just the time for the Queen to go there. Using 8 frames for few days lead to messing the comb. Using 9 frames they just made the cells bigger. I use a simple scratch tool to uncap honey frames and its flexible. But using a knife or an automated machine for those frames will bee a problem.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2013, 02:59:58 AM »

Most all commercial beekeepers (in the USA) that uses automatic knives have 9 frames in a 10 frame boxer .  This setup will not stop Queens from going into the supers.




                                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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ThomasGR
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2013, 07:00:02 AM »

Thanks for your response,
So it is practical for people with thousand frames to be a little bit extended, the knife shaves easily the cap.
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blanc
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 08:57:33 AM »

I have a buddy who has 9 in a ten box and all I can say is he has a mess in there.
Blanc
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2013, 10:23:36 AM »

Thanks for your response,
So it is practical for people with thousand frames to be a little bit extended, the knife shaves easily the cap.

I Have looked the gap with eyes 45 years.

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« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 04:40:51 PM by Finski » Logged

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Jim 134
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »

I have a buddy who has 9 in a ten box and all I can say is he has a mess in there.
Blanc
Hint:
 When you put 9 frames and 10 frame box the 9 frames have to be previously drawn out not foundationless and not foundation.................


                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Finski
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 04:42:46 PM »

.
If you start 9 frame system with foundations, it will be a mesh. But if combs are fully build, then take one off and fit the gaps even.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2013, 08:26:52 AM »

How to avoid excluders:

1) don't use them.
2) leave enough drone brood in the brood nest
3) leave a box of capped honey above the brood nest
4) use 7/11 foundation in the supers
5) use all the same size boxes and don't worry about where the queen lays... if there is brood in it, it's not a super...

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Michael Bush
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Finski
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 10:07:00 AM »

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I have not used much excluders during my 50 years beekeeping.

System has been developed so that I give 3 langstroth boxes for frood in the middle of summer. Then queen has no need to go to lay onto honey frames.
In practice lowest box will be full of pollen in main yield. In August bees will use the pollen store and they rear winter bees with that.

You may add excluder at the late half of yield season, but I notice that queen was not happy if I put it to lay onto empty combs. It seems important that brood area is compact and the colony does not stant it that queen is forced to lay in new box. Winter cluster  became quite small with that system.

I have Italian bees and they tend to eate all pollen stores before autumn.

The right thing may be that I put the pollen box and brood box for queen, and then excluder and other boxes to rippen over excluder.

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ThomasGR
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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2013, 04:38:36 PM »

Your answers are really valuable, although the climates are so different. After doing some research ( also in this forum ) i try to "convert" all this data to useful information for my location. Flow in Finland or cold U.S states is strong and short. Here there is available flow over 8-9 months but not strong. Hundreds of different plants gives nectar during this period, but not to much to harvest each.

I am almost sure that the KEY word is patience and harvest on the mid - end of this large season. I used queen excluders in 3 test hives to harvest "more" honey of the desired type by the clients ( spring - early summer light color ) . The result was that Queen Cells raised in all 3 hives above the excluder and also replacement cells in the brood box. 2 hives messed and 1 hive ready to harvest! It is so complicated, i think the ability of the queen is the factor that defines how many boxes are brood boxes. Its true, if there is brood in every box, then this colony needs more space, no ways to get rid of brood.This is definitely good, not trouble.

My conclusion is that excluders are not necessary but the "desired" type of honey is what... makes beekeepers trying to feet them in their operations.
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Finski
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2013, 05:03:08 PM »

Your answers are really valuable, although the climates are so different. After doing some research ( also in this forum ) i try to "convert" all this data to useful information for my location.

50years ago our climate was same as now. But beekeeping was very different. Hives were small. One brood + one super and lots of swarming.
 45 years ago I got Caucasian queens from Canada. Then I started to get real honey yields.

Now swarming has been breeded much away and hives are bigger.

I use knowledge from USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada. I am greedy and I want big yields. I love big hives, big bees and big cells.  Nothing natural.
I hate natural combs, top bar hives and all beekeepers who try to save the earth with their personal beekeeping style.

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Jim 134
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2013, 08:28:00 PM »

I use knowledge from USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada. I am greedy and I want big yields. I love big hives, big bees and big cells.  Nothing natural.
I hate natural combs, top bar hives and all beekeepers who try to save the earth with their personal beekeeping style.
Finski............

Well at least you know what you want. I do hope you can get it.
 
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                         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Finski
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2013, 12:51:44 AM »



Well at least you know what you want. I do hope you can get it.
 

After 50 years beekeeping, this is mostly  very boring.  Must do things.

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ronwhite3030
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2013, 12:01:15 PM »

Where I am in California we don't get long honey flows so I have to use excluders if I want any honey otherwise it will all get used up for feeding brood so I have found I can get honey by using excluders until mid june to get a honey crop and then take them off for the rest of the season to grow the bees. I need to reduce to one brood box with the excluder. Some people may not like it, but its how I like to do it.
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