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Author Topic: i want to make some nuc's up. tell me what to do!  (Read 797 times)
adamant
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« on: June 23, 2013, 08:19:57 AM »

I like to make some nucs up. tell me what to do, what to look for, what to stay away from and what time in the day is best.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 09:05:39 AM »

I do hope this help you out in making Nucs & Splits   


                                              Notes for Making Nucs & Splits

Nucs and splits are the same thing,but generally terms used to describe their purpose. Splits are made to increase your colonies from your bees. Nucs are purchased from someone else and they make them to sell at a profit.

Nucs and splits are simply small hives containing a Queen, several frames of brood, and a frame or two of honey and pollen. They are started as 3 to 5 frames. The following steps will insure a successful start to a new hive.

Nucs can be started at any time in late spring, summer and early fall. Late season Nucs require additional brood and food to build strong populations before winter. Successful Nucs in New England are best when started in May and June.

Donor Colony-Pick a strong, healthy colony headed by an overwintered Queen. Should have 6-8 brood frames including open brood with eggs and larvae. A strong 5 frame Nuc needs 3 frames of brood plus two with honey and pollen.

Steps for making a Nuc

1) Setup Equipment. Any size box will work. When using a ten-frame hive use a follower board to create a false wall for the frames

2) Select the frames. 1 frames. 1 frames of capped brood,1 frame open brood with eggs and larvae, and 1 frame of honey and pollen. Extra brood frames can be added to make it a 5-frame Nuc.

3)  Introduce a mated within 24 hours After 24 hours the bees may start Queen cells. A mated Queen will not kill developing Queens and may be killed by an emerging Queen.
               
               . Do not let Nuc raise its own Queen. This does not normally result in a quality
                 Queen. Often they are from old larvae and become intercaste Queens
                 (part worker & part Queen).   

4) The 3 mile rule says that the Nuc must be moved to avoid bees returning to the old hive.This is not necessary if you pull brood frames with the adhering young worker bees. Screen the entrance for 24 hours allowing the new Queens pheromones to be distributed and the bees will know they are in a new location and reorient themselves to the Nuc location.                             

5) Feed syrup & a pollen patty. The Nuc will be populated by young house bees and emerging brood.It will lack the older foraging bees making feeding a necessity for the first month.                                 
             . An extra advantage making Nucs is that it that it interrupts the brood cycle as the new
               Queen begins laying and that reduces mite loads.
 Nucs can be used for many purposes;to increase colonies, to sell bees,for mating Nucs, for holding
 reserve Queens, and proving Queens before introducing to a honey producing colonies.

Common mistakes that cause Nucs to fail:

            .   Split too early before temperatures are consistently warm 50-70F.
            .   Start with too little brood and bees. Chilled brood,or neglected  brood
                due to low worker population.
            .   Queen is not accepted or Nuc is allowed to raise their own.
            .   Become overcrowded and swarms before additional frames are added


     
          BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley     
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
adamant
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 11:23:02 AM »

jim. a big thank you
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Andrew Dewey
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2013, 12:15:31 PM »

Bad form to post the identical question here and on another forum.  Sad
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Dimmsdale
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 12:31:59 PM »

Why is that?Huh??
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Andrew Dewey
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 12:37:24 PM »

 I spent a good 10+ minutes writing a detailed response to a question that had already been answered.  Forums don't exist to waste people's time.  And I do consider it a waste.
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don2
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 01:59:05 PM »

I have really bad form. d2
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sc-bee
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 02:40:02 PM »

I spent a good 10+ minutes writing a detailed response to a question that had already been answered.  Forums don't exist to waste people's time.  And I do consider it a waste.

Why were you even over there  grin Bad form naw -- probably a different audience..... just copy and paste the same answer if you think i is a waste of time. Bad form to call someone out trying to learn evil
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John 3:16
adamant
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 03:00:37 PM »

Bad form to post the identical question here and on another forum.  Sad

Andy. welcome to this forum. I am the author of that question and chose to post on the three popular forums.
did you have an answer to my question?
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adamant
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 03:01:36 PM »

Why is that?Huh??
dim,
thank you
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Wolfer
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 04:41:26 PM »

In getting back to the OP. I keep it pretty simple. I take a frame of eggs/larva , aframe of capped brood and a frame of pollen/honey plus another frame of whatever just for extra bees and drawn comb. Sometimes I use five frames in a six frame nuc. I may check in a week to make sure they started a cell or I may not. I write the date on top of the box and stay out for 30 days. I usually have larva by then. In a couple week the new queen will be getting tight on room and I move them to a ten frame box and start over with my nuc.

I often only take one frame from 4 or 5 hives so as not to hurt them any. I've only bought one queen in my life and wasn't too pleased with her. My first hive was a queen less Russian hive that mated with the local ferals and I've had good luck with them or perhaps I just don't know any better.

Walt Kelley said the earliest you should split was when the blackberries bloom in your area and I've found this to be good advise. I've split many times earlier but was never happy with the results.
I build most of my nucs after the summer solstice, the flow is about done and with a little feed I can get these into a full size deep by winter. They may need fed in February but when spring hits you better have your boxes ready.

This might not work where you are but it works for me.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 07:48:35 PM »

Bad form to post the identical question here and on another forum.  Sad

Andrew Dewey ....

Usually adamant ask questions after he has already done the job.  And then ask the question on 3 to 4 forms plus a few beekeeping pages on Facebook.  I see him do this many times.
The biggest reason why I answer most of his questions I hope it helps out a other beekeeper.....  And yes he goes by a different name on Facebook..  



            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 08:06:23 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
don2
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 08:04:44 PM »

There is also the possibility to get two slightly different answers. I like those too.  Smiley d2
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2013, 08:43:49 PM »

if it weren't for bad form i'd have no form at all....wasn't there a song about that?

i know, i know, bad form to go OT and random......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Andrew Dewey
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2013, 09:32:10 PM »

I must be old fashioned.  Cross posting is prohibited (as in a violation of what the user agreed to when the account was opened) on the other forum and I assumed it was here - but I checked and found it isn't.  I understand the intent of getting an answer to a question from multiple sources all at once but I find it distasteful.  If a question isn't responded to in a reasonable amount of time, by all means post it somewhere else.  I had a long talk with my wife about acceptable internet behavior and she tells me this is the modern way and that I should get used to it.  I can't post my response from the other forum, but I can say I got a "Thank You" from adamant.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 09:48:57 PM »

Andrew we have no prohibitions about posting here and elsewhere at the same time. No rules have been broken, so relax. And in no way shape or form are the mods here going to spend our time chasing through other forums to see if something may have been posted in two different places on the net.
Perhaps he is trying to get answers from a wide audience.
How much time do you spend chasing posts?  Perhaps time could be better spent on other things.
We do not strive to be "just like the other forum" whichever one it may be. And if someone needs to be corrected ,let the mods handle it.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2013, 11:08:51 AM »

> what to look for

At least the equivelant of two deeps of bees, brood, honey and drawn comb.

>what to stay away from

Don't make weak splits.  Don't make them too early.  Don't make them too late.  Here (Southeast Nebraska) I would not make a split later than the end of July and then only if there was a flow on.

> and what time in the day is best.

Time of day is irrelevant other than I typical working times.  Rainy days are not good.  Too early is not good just because they will be grouchy.  Late in the day is fine as long as you don't run until dark.

http://bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Oblio13
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2013, 12:59:05 PM »

I apologize in advance to Michael Bush, Kirk Webster and others for not properly accrediting them with the following cut-and-paste. These are my (somewhat disorganized) personal notes about making summer splits after reading and listening to them:



After the longest day, towards the end of swarm season, find the queen and put her in a nuc with 2 frames of brood, 1 frame of honey and extra bees, and feed them.

The queen-less hive will then raise queen-cells.

10 days later, make nucs with 2 frames brood and 2 frames food each.

Be sure each nuc gets a queen cell.

3 weeks later, check each nuc for a laying queen, and feed them until they're full.

Divide any queen-less nucs into the others to make 5-frame nucs.

Keep a few nucs small by mining them for brood, so you'll always have spare queens.

Keep feeding empty frames between drawn brood comb. If you keep them busy drawing comb where they can't get it wrong, you get a lot of good comb.




Metamorphosis of the queen bee
Egg
hatches on Day 3
Larva (several moltings)
Day 3 to Day 8½
Queen cell capped
~ Day 7½
Pupa
~ Day 8 until emergence
Emergence
~Day 15½ - Day 17
Nuptial Flight(s)
~Day 20 - 24
Egg Laying
~Day 23 and up




The best time for producing queens and nucs here is during June and July. 
Summer nucs are made up with the smallest amount of bees and brood that will make a healthy, viable colony. By waiting until summer to do this, you optimize the process. Warm weather is finally here to stay, so fewer bees are needed for each nuc. Also, the colonies supplying the brood and bees are now at the optimum size for splitting. Once you get into the second week of June, each good frame of sealed brood will start a new colony. A donor colony that could be made into three or four new colonies in May can be made into 6-10 colonies in late June—if you’re planning to winter those new colonies as nucs occupying one box or less. Days are long during mid-summer, allowing more opportunities for mating flights; and drones are abundant in areas with lots of honey producing colonies.

Each nuc is made up of four frames as follows; starting next to the feeder: One frame of honey with bees; a good frame of sealed brood with bees; and then either a frame of pollen or unsealed brood with bees. The fourth frame will be either a frame of foundation or another frame of honey—depending on whether the nuc will be set out in a good honey area or where nectar resources are poor.

Queen cells or mated queens are put into the nucs one, two, or three days later. The early nucs will grow onto eight frames later in the season. The later nucs will remain on four combs until the following spring.

The clover honey flow starts during the nuc making process.



The goal is to provide early spring strong nucleus colonies from hearty stock at a low cost. This is the direction New England beekeeping is going. Our northern climate prohibits raising queens in the spring, but northern-raised queens are available in the summer. Also we face a nectar dearth in August. This technique takes advantage of these conditions to produce inexpensive but robust colonies.

In July make up nucleus colonies that will grow and establish themselves during the months of August and September so they are strong enough to survive the winter. The best time to make nucs is July.

August is too late because the bees don’t have enough time to organize their hive the way they need for winter and build up the appropriate number of bees for winter.

You can do it sooner, but the bees build up and may either swarm or become crowded. If you are in this situation, take a frame of brood and bees from the nuc to reduce the population. You can also put another hive body on top to handle the extra bees.

Suit-up well and make sure your smoker is going strong. You want to use minimum smoke so the bees don’t run off the frames, but you have to go deep into the brood chamber. Try to work smoothly without banging things around. If the bees get really angry, blow some smoke in the air. Make sure you are organized before you start. Nuc boxes out and on the bottom board, the entrances screened. Know where you are going to place the frames, have the replacement frames ready. Lightly smoke the hive, but put a lot of smoke in the air. If you have honey supers on the donor hive, take them off and leave the inner cover on top to help keep the bees inside. Place the supers on top of the upturned outer cover. Go slowly taking the bees with the frames and make sure the queen is not on the frame. If you are not going to move the nuc boxes to a new location, shake an additional frame of bees into the nuc. Remember to look for the queen first. The reason for the additional bees is because the older bees will fly back to the donor hive.

Add open comb frames to backfill the donor hive and fill up the nuc box. Close-up the nuc box and the donor hive.

Rehearse this process in your mind before you start.

Move the nucs a few miles away so the bees don’t fly back to the donor hive. Then you can remove the screened opening.


Review:

For each colony add the following: One frame of honey

One frame of pollen
One frame of wall to wall brood. If the frame is not solid brood, take a second frame of brood Two frames of drawn comb (one frame if you used two frames of brood.

You can take these frames from a strong colony, realizing you are going to set that colony back a bit. That may be OK, since this is the summer death.



Place the nucs on their bottom board somewhere where they are out of the afternoon sun. It is hard for bees to keep a nuc cool in the hot sun. Get them up off the ground away from predators. For the first four weeks feed 1:1 sugar syrup, to stimulate the bees. This is important because there will be nectar dearth during August.

Peek in the hive every week to see how they are doing. You will find the nucs are easier to work than full sized hives making them excellent learning tools. Look for a failed queen or the opposite, a hive has built up rapidly and is ready to swarm. If the nuc looks swarmy you can add another nuc box on top or you can remove a frame of brood (make sure you do not remove the queen). You should see a nice frame of new brood by mid-August.

Fall Management:

Once the cool weather of September sets in they should not swarm. You do want a lot of bees though. Each box needs about two frames of honey for the winter. The cluster size should be about the size of a football. In mid-September, if the box looks light, feed 2:1 syrup. Use either a rim board and plastic bags, or add a second super and use an inverted pail feeder. Assuming a normal fall, there should be plenty of Goldenrod pollen.

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