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Author Topic: queen less cut out splitting and requeening questions  (Read 796 times)
Roy Coates
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« on: June 11, 2013, 11:33:02 AM »

I did a cut out 6-3 I did not find the queen and suspected I did not get her with the bee vac(or killed her). I got about 8 frames of brood in all stages with some stores. by 6-6 they had made 6 queen cells. by this time I didn't want to leave anything to chance so I ordered two queens. My intention is now to split this colony. I believe there are plenty of bees and the sealed brood is hatching. I need to get them out of the temp hive so I have prepared two hives. I plan to put 4 frames in each hive, crush the queen cells(i have no way to raise them) and some additional drawn comb with stores from another hive. The new hive will be placed with their entrances facing each other, perpendicular to the original hive entrance(not sure if this is necessary). I have read Michael Bush's chapter on splits and re-queening as well as Wyatt Magnum's. Any friendly suggestions? Anything I am over or under planning?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 12:42:39 PM »

The only reason I bother with a cutout is to get the genetics...

Facing each other will equalize the drift somewhat.

Sounds like you have a reasonable plan.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Roy Coates
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 01:18:25 PM »

Thanks Michael, I am after both the bees and genetics. I lost all 7 of my colonies over the winter so I am short on bees now. Coupled with my inexperience I panicked and ordered some queens. I will go ahead with the plan. PS I charge a small fortune for a cut out
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marktrl
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 02:28:13 PM »

" I plan to put 4 frames in each hive, crush the queen cells(i have no way to raise them)"

You could've put half the cells in each hive and let the bees "raise" them for you.
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Roy Coates
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 10:02:49 PM »

True Marktrl, However I had ordered the queens and they arrive tomorrow. I was unsure about how to proceed so I erred on the side of caution, lack of experience, school sucks. Still a rookie I put together a plan based on my reading and limited experience.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 08:00:34 AM »

I'd set up a nuc for each queen with one frame of brood and one frame of honey and the purchased queens.  Meanwhile let the cutout raise it's own queens.  Or if you want to view it the other way around, put a frame with a queen cell and brood and a frame of honey in a nuc (or more then one if you have more frames with queen cells) and introduce the bought queens to the cutout.  Either way you end up with several queens and some of them are the cutout genetics.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Roy Coates
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 09:39:47 AM »

Michael that sounds like a great idea and something I feel I can pull off. I have some confusion about hive/entrance placement in this scenario. Original hive stays put and the two nuc's? face each other in front of the original? options?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 11:15:03 AM »

The idea of equalizing drift is that there is nothing at the old location.  The two halves of the split face the old location (at right angles to the original entrance).  The returning bees then have to choose between the two.  Just shake in an extra frame worth of bees from some brood that doesn't have a queen cell on it into the nucs.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
sawdstmakr
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 11:49:19 AM »

Thanks Michael, I am after both the bees and genetics. I lost all 7 of my colonies over the winter so I am short on bees now. Coupled with my inexperience I panicked and ordered some queens. I will go ahead with the plan. PS I charge a small fortune for a cut out
You say you are after the genetics but you are going to place new queens in these hives. At that point the genetics of the feral bees is lost. Are the queens coming from the same place that you got the hives last year? The same genetics that did not survive the winter?
Did the feral bees survive from last fall?
Jim
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"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain
Roy Coates
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 12:08:07 PM »

Jim, It is true I am interested in diverse genetics, the bees and the money I get paid from the cut outs.  I obviously jumped the gun ordering queens because I am inexperienced and believed their success rate of raising a new queen, getting her mated and safely returning from her mating flight was less than if I bought queens. I realize that the genetic line would be altered by the introduction of new queens. My problem/concern was the best way to proceed *now* with what I have 2 new queens, 6 queen cells and 8 frames of comb(brood n stores) Thanks for your input.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2013, 12:17:48 PM »

Roy,
I brought it up because I have switched from farm raised queens to feral and locally raised queens that have not depended on chemical treatments to keep them alive. So far it is working. If i were going to buy bees or queens, my first question would be, what treatments are you using?
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Jim
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"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain
Roy Coates
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 12:26:15 PM »

Jim, so far no chemical treatments. I selected the queens VSH as a next best option. I like what Michael said when asked his favorite type bee. He said " a live one" I am not opposed to treatment if needed. I would love to have a sustainable yard with no treatments. Hopefully I will have better results over this winter than last. My only surviving colony was that which was in a tree that came down in November. I cut a 6 foot section of the 32 inch diameter log and brought it home. They are a hands off situation and I watched them swarm last weekend. Pollen still going in so I hope I am population my area with more feral colonies s that way as well.
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Roy Coates
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 01:02:28 PM »

" I can see the forest but I can't see the tree" author unknown.

So I set up the nuc's and the original will keep the queen cells. Where and how do I position the three hives. I don't have an out yard at the time. Keep in mind these are all top bar hives onee two footer (original) and two 4 footers that I can and will section off into nuc's.

I thought I could face the two nuc's towards the original hive entrance and after Michsel comment on drift I am not sure
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 01:02:40 PM »

> and believed their success rate of raising a new queen, getting her mated and safely returning from her mating flight was less than if I bought queens.

I always figure the odds of them successfully raising their own queen are better than the odds of introducing a different queen...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Roy Coates
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 06:08:13 PM »

So I set up the nuc's and the original will keep the queen cells.

Where and how do I position the three hives?

I don't have an out yard at the time.

Keep in mind these are all top bar hives onee two footer (original) and two 4 footers that I can and will section off into nuc's.

I thought I could face the two nuc's towards the original hive entrance and after Michsel comment on drift I am not sure
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beek1951
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 07:01:42 PM »

Homemade queens are usually better than store-bought.
I agree with the consensus; Let the hive raise a queen from the cells,
and make up two tow-frame splits with the mated queens and baby them
to 5-frames. Too bad you don't have enough brood to split the cells also.
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Roy Coates
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 07:11:56 PM »

I agree beek. Now my Question is how and where to place the nuc's ?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:27:05 AM by Roy Coates » Logged
Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 08:24:46 AM »

>Now my wuestion is how and where to place the nuc's ?

Shake in an extra frame of nurse bees and put them anywhere you like.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Roy Coates
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 10:01:53 PM »

Update. After reading and asking much this is what I put together: The queens arrived today after a mailing snafu in good shape. In preparing for their arrival I made up 2 nuc's yesterday. I took a frame of brood from my first year hives and a frame of honey I had stored and placed in each of the nuc's and put the entrances facing the old hive location. I pulled the frames with queens cells from the original hive and placed them with bees into the permanent  hive also orientating that entrance towards the original location. I shook the bees from the brood frames into the nuc's about two frames in each. I shook out the hive body onto the nuc's and new hive(many bees). They settled in overnight and part of the following day. The queens arrived today and I removed the attending bees and placed the queen cages in between the brood and stores, ensuring there was enough space for the bees to access them. The nuc's looked good as far density of bees covering the brood and stores. The queens cells in the original hive are due to hatch out + or - on the 19th or 20th that hive has plenty of comb, bees and stores.

Thanks for all the input
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