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Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 15823 times)
Moots
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« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2013, 12:50:56 PM »


which i believe is the distinction i made in the first place. 

Exactly....
Just because the government did something wrong doesn't mean what Snowden did was right.  I guess that's the point I keep harping on.  Every time I take issue with what Snowden did, it gets interpreted as agreeing with what the government did.  To me, they're two different and distinct issues.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2013, 02:53:45 PM »


Maybe we should start calling him Nathan Hale.



Iddee, that's a good start.


Here is a historical primer for my friends BlueBee, Moots, kathyp, iddee and the rest on how Obama is perverting the rule of law as well as the intent of the Constitution through Presidential use of Executive Orders.

8. 'From Reichstag Fire to Enablng Act'


The path to the top that Hitler used to rise to power is the same path that Obama is now traveling, and the destination is the same, don't think that it isn't.  Why do you think that Obama received a chilly reception in Berlin recently?  Germans are a much smarter people than Americans.  Germany has seen Obama's dog and pony show before.  It would be good if you could find the time to watch the entire 6 minutes of this video.  If you need help to keep focused, think of Hitler and the Nazis as Pac Man devouring millions of Jews, Slavs, little "d" democrats and others in the name of public safety. 

Ihr Bruder ist uns entwischt, aber Sie werden uns nicht entwischen! Translation: (Your brother is beyond our reach, but you will not escape us!) 

This was the verdict handed down to Frau Elfriede Scholz who was Guillotined on December 9Th 1943 buy the Nazi "civil" government for confiding in her land lady, "The war is lost."  Frau Scholz's older brother was the famous anti-war novelist and pacifist Erick Remarque who fled to the USA to escape the Nazis much like Snowden fled to escape Obama.  The Nazis even sent Frau Scholz's brother an 80 Mark bill for cleaning up the mess Frau Scholz made in the Nazis' Guillotine room.  President Obama would call it, "Paying your fair share."

The Nazis or Gestapo were the prototype for the East German Communist Party's Secret Police known as the STASI.  The STASI is widely credited with being the most effective, and the most repressive secret police agency ever devised by god and man.  One of the first acts that East Germans did when they realized that they were free, was to go on a rampage and ransack the offices of the STASI.  They did this to destroy as many of the STASI files as humanely possible incase the East German government restored order.  The down side is that this made it harder for the Germans to later weed out all the part time STASI workers and informants.  By some German accounts this amounted to at least 25% of the East German population.



The motto of the STASI was "The Sword and The Shield of the Party."  I have heard that the STASI collected hundreds of thousands if not millions of samples of ordinary East Germans' body odor for covert identification purposes, much like we collect mug shots or finger prints from criminals.     
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kathyp
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« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2013, 03:11:50 PM »

yup.  that's why i have always said that what's going on here compares more to fascist Germany than any communist/socialist country take over.  it's almost textbook.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2013, 06:22:29 AM »

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/influential-senator-warned-in-1975-the-national-security-agencys-capability-at-any-time-could-be-turned-around-on-the-american-people-and-no-american-would-have-any-privacy-left.html

National Security is not the underlying goal of this agency.  Bin Laden was very careful not to take electronic communications into his compounds. He had people that were constantly on the move making these calls. He knew he could be tracked electronically with cell phones and such. It is being disengenuous to the American people to say now we left a secret out to terrorists that they previously didn'yt know they could be tracked via electronic communication.
And to say we should all feel safer giving up freedom of private conversation or communication? That is just absurd.   But what else should we come to expect from the most open and honest administartion ever?
This administration has prosecuted, or persecuted maybe, more whistleblowers than all previous administrations combined. And Snowden also knows this. Again maybe the reason he chose the route he did. Things do not end well for whistle blowers in this administration.
 At least there have not been as many mysterious deaths as during the Clinton years, or have there, and we do not know about it?

When these whistleblowers are tried behind closed doors, and no agency of the fed has accounatbility to the people they are supposed to serve, we fall into the clutches of the shadow government. We need a lot more bright lights of truth shining from all directions to eliminate this shadow. This government  is supposed to be beholden to the states and the people,but we are quickly becoming subjects .
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edward
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« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2013, 08:29:24 AM »

We need a lot more bright lights of truth shining from all directions to eliminate this shadow. This government  is supposed to be beholden to the states and the people,but we are quickly becoming subjects

 police YES  police
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kathyp
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« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2013, 11:18:45 AM »

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Bin Laden was very careful not to take electronic communications into his compounds.

only after the NYTs exposed how the electronic communications were tracked.

Quote
When these whistleblowers are tried behind closed doors, and no agency of the fed has accounatbility to the people

he's not a whistleblower.

Quote
This government  is supposed to be beholden to the states and the people,but we are quickly becoming subjects .

agreed, which is why we need to be very careful about the kind of people we put into office.  it is not practical, or even good, to have a completely open government.  there are secrets that need to be kept.  to that end, the secret keepers need to be of the highest moral caliber, and respecters of the law.  i don't think we can say we have that now.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2013, 11:40:48 AM »

Kathy,
Spot on, on all three points! cool
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #107 on: June 29, 2013, 12:54:16 PM »

He was a whistleblower. He exposed the shadow government to the sheeple.
The ability to track things electronically is no secret. Recording every electronic communication is stepping way overboard. We are a free people and should not have to live in fear of what happens when this info gets in the wrong hands. It surprises me that medical info to be collected by Obabmacare  gets under your skin,but recording every electronic transaction of your life does not?  And registering guns is not okay but spying on you is? Moral equivalents in my mind.
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kingbee
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« Reply #108 on: June 29, 2013, 01:37:17 PM »

...

Bin Laden was very careful not to take electronic communications into his compounds....

only after the NYTs exposed how the electronic communications were tracked.



Wrong!  In fact,

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam. Start watching at minute 4:25 if you doubt me.

Exclusive Osama Bin Laden - First Ever TV Interview

« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 01:52:10 PM by kingbee » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #109 on: June 29, 2013, 02:37:45 PM »

Quote
He was a whistleblower. He exposed the shadow government to the sheeple.

it is a legal term.  it carries responsibility for the blower and protections.  what he did was simply theft.  you may say that it's for a good cause, but it's no different that what was done by Manning, or any other leaker and spewer of secrets.  to make this the norm and to make these guys heroes is dangerous. 

Quote
And registering guns is not okay but spying on you is?

that is not what i am saying.  it is not ok, although it's not new.  it is HOW he did what he did that is the problem.  if he had info that needed to be examined, he could have done it legally and been protected.   instead he stole info and fled to a communist county.  we still don't know all that he has or where it has gone. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #110 on: June 29, 2013, 02:46:59 PM »

Quote
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam. Start watching at minute 4:25 if you doubt me.

not sure what you are talking about .  his folks had basic info on tracking and cell phones.  other than that, and some unsophisticated scanning equipment, they were pretty uninformed about what really could be done with electronics.  AFTER the NYTs article, much of what they were doing went dark. that's when he went to the courier system almost exclusively.  it was because we were having some success watching his, and other AQ communications, that the bush admin begged the NYTs not to publish what they had.

we give these folks more credit for smarts than they are due.  UBL was not an operations genius.  he was a messianic figurehead and financier.  his operations people were good at tribal warfare and gorilla stuff, but just a step above cave dwellers in most things.  bad as 9/11 was, it was not so well planned.  with proper planning and even a couple hours difference in timing, it could have been so much worse.
they got lucky because we were lax in immigration policy and intel.

that NYT article would have been a good case for blocking the press legally, but the admin chose not to do it.  a mistake, i think.  freedom of the press does not extend that far....as prior wars have shown.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #111 on: June 29, 2013, 04:25:00 PM »

6 or 7 years before the NYT article and over 4 years before 911 Peter Arrnet taped an interview with bin Laden.  Bin Laden's people were as paranoid then about electronic spying and eves dropping as the NSA is unconcerned with your and my privacy.  The information about bin Laden's electronic security precautions about electronic tracking is in the video accompanying my 11:18AM post.  Watch the video.

Hence,

Wrong!  In fact,

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.....
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kingbee
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« Reply #112 on: June 29, 2013, 04:42:44 PM »

...

National Security is not the underlying goal of this agency... [The NSA] ...Bin Laden was very careful not to take electronic

communications into his compounds...  He knew he could be tracked electronically with cell phones and such. It is being

disengenuous to the American people to say now we left a secret out to terrorists that they previously didn'yt know they could

be tracked via electronic communication.



Every time that Bin Laden's whereabouts was discovered it was discovered by good old fashion intelligence foot work.  

Here is a video of part of Bin Laden's first TV interview.  It backs up buzzbee's comments to a tee.  What I am talking about is Peter Arnett's having to use Bin Laden's or the Taliban's video and recording equipment for this interview because back in 1997 the Taliban already knew that electronic equipment could be bugged to reveal the location of Ben Laden's cave or compound.
If you want to defeat an enemy it is best to begin from a possession of superior intellect from your enemy.
Exclusive Osama Bin Laden - First Ever TV Interview

 
Here is the transcript of that interview.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7204.htm

Just to make buzzbee's remarks as binding as cheese, two days before the 911 attacks, Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies assassinated the leader of the Northern Alliance, Shah Massoud.  The method bin Laden used was a fake or hollowed out video camera packed with explosives, maybe even the same video camera that Arnett used to tape his bin Laden interview 4 years earlier.  (where is the, "I get a headache just thinking about how stupid America has become " icon?)

The Taliban don't miss an opportunity.  The 911 attack was designed to draw us into Afghanistan and the Taliban didn't want us to ally ourselves with Shah Massoud and his Northern Alliance.  Because  Ahmad Shah Massoud was the most effective anti-Taliban military leader on Afghan territory it was dangerous in the extreme for the Taliban to leave him alive because after the 911 attacks on New York, and DC, Osama and the Taliban knew that we would come looking for them find Massoud an effective ally.  By the way, the current Afghan leader is Ahmad Shah Massoud's brother.

The only reason that Osama bin Laden attacked the USA was to lure us into Afghanistan were the Taliban and their superior third world commitment could bankrupt and defeat us like the Vet Cong did 40 years earlier.  The only difference between then and now is that now Osama is fighting on the offensive and 40 years before General Gap was fighting a defensive war, trying to drive us from Vet Nam.  Remember both the US military and the US government has a bad case of Attention Deficit Disorder and it is no different now than it was in 1965.  To his credit, Ahmad Karzai offered us a perfect storm of a winning strategy to defeat the Taliban and their black turbaned Pashtu tribesmen.  The following map of the ethnic break down of Afghanistan is telling.  

http://s7.postimg.org/l116bbvnb/330px_Map_of_Ethnic_Groups_in_Districts_in_Afg.jpg[/img][/url]


Notice how Pashtu's not only live in their strong hold in the South of Afghanistan but now have scattered enclaves  through out the North of Afghanistan as well.  Some of this patchwork resettlement is the work of the former Afghan king who tried to rule by division or by setting all sides at war against their neighbors, sometimes called the Ottoman strategy.  Most of the Pashtu inroads however were the result of bin Laden's al Qaeda, fighting beside the Pashtu dominated Taliban to displace the other Afghan tribes like the Tajik, the Uzbek, the Nurastani, and the Turkmen.  In fact the Pashtuns displaced many of these tribesmen and their families right into the ground because there were as many a 15 systemic genocide centers operating at that time in areas that had recently came under Taliban control.

After 911 and the first American involvement Ahmad Shah Massoud's brother Karzi, wanted us to support him in a campaign to march his late brother's army from the North of Afghanistan all the way to its southern borders killing and raping every Pashtu man, woman, and child foolish enough to either remain in Afghanistan or who stood in the Northern Alliance's way.  The Tajik and the other repressed tribes were keen to join the Northern Alliance in this orgy of slaughter, pillage, mayham, and rape.  In many Afghan minds this is nothing more than a full employment economy, sort of like Obama's Trillions in stimulus spending.  Of course it was also seen as retribution for their own families' and tribes' misfortunes.  If this seems excessively cruel, remember this is how warfare has always been conducted in this part of the world.  The most innocent purpose of warfare is not to make John Wayne or Gerry Cooper movies but to trade "Peace for Peace" with your enemy.  However for any long lasting peace to arrive you must trade "Peace to your enemy in exchange for his SURVIVAL!!"   The problem the US Military and Political Establishment has with this strategy is that it doesn't help with the promotion prospects of the officers Corp because it only requires a minuscule outlay of American blood and treasure, meaning not only doesn't the Officer Corp get its tidy little war and a promotion out of it, but this strategy also doesn't fund many jobs and contracts in Congressional districts with military bases.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 05:13:17 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #113 on: June 29, 2013, 06:11:11 PM »

Manning jeapordized and exposed operatives in foreign nations risking their lives. The only one exposed or harmed by Snowden was the federal government and it's out of control  acronym agencies that hold themselves above the law and Constitution. Manning has been treated less than humanely and is going to be tryed in secret. Really makes any whistleblower want to come forward.
We impeached a president for a whole lot less.
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« Reply #114 on: June 29, 2013, 08:13:22 PM »

Quote
What I am talking about is Peter Arnett's having to use Bin Laden's or the Taliban's video and recording equipment for this interview because back in 1997 the Taliban already knew that electronic equipment could be bugged to reveal the location of Ben Laden's cave or compound.

of course they did, but they did not know the extent of our ability to track all communications and movements by almost all electronic devices.  the specifics  of what we were doing are what the NYT exposed.  after that article, they were far more careful and quit almost all electronic communication of any kind.  thus, the courier services which eventually were helpful to follow, but certainly took more time and people.

much of the rest you post is your supposition of facts.  that's not proof.  i do not believe, for instance, that UBL attacked us to draw us into afghanistan.  i doubt he gave a crap about the taliban.  he'd used them before.  he was using them again.  he had a personal agenda to drive us from the muslim lands and to destroy us.  his choice of attacks shows more his lack of understanding, than a grand plan to draw us into a protracted war.  we managed to do that ourselves by not turning the mountains of afghanistan into a couple of valley resorts.

not that any of this has anything to do with the subject at hand.

forget for a moment, the specific info this guy has leaked.  i have already stipulated that it is info the American public should have.
  the general question is:  is it in the interest of the American people's security, long term, to have people who are tasked with keeping the nations secrets, deciding on their own which secrets they will keep, and which they will share.  is it a matter of the popularity of the info at any given time?  near as i can tell, Manning has blood on his hands.  even so, many think him a hero.  they believe that the info he put out is stuff that people really need to know.  is their belief less valid than yours, that we need the info Snowden has put out?  who gets to decide?

seems to me we have laws that protect our info so that the sharing of that info is done according to law, and not at the whim of anyone who reads something he doesn't like...or something he thinks will bring him fame at it's release.  and we also, knowing that sometimes our government does things that need to be exposed, have a mechanism for doing that legally.  how is that not a good system...when followed?


« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 12:04:38 AM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #115 on: June 29, 2013, 08:32:50 PM »


He exposed the shadow government to the sheeple.

[whistleblower]... is a legal term.  it carries responsibility for the blower ...what he [Snowden] did was simply theft....


Yes, and this Einsatzgruppen trooper is just helping a little old lady get on the bus.

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« Reply #116 on: June 29, 2013, 08:58:33 PM »

Quote
Yes, and this Einsatzgruppen trooper is just helping a little old lady get on the bus.

oh come on.  you can do better than that!   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2013, 11:48:09 PM »


oh come on.  you can do better than that!   Wink

Actually kathy....I don't think they can!  laugh
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« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2013, 04:43:24 PM »

You do know it is possible to encrypt your communications so they can not see what is in them. They know where it goes and comes from,but if you do not have the key they can not open it. Using encryption will get you on the top of the list,but what you send will not be known,only where it was sent from and where it goes. There are also proxy servers to alter that kind of thing. Bad guys know this stuff too. making it really overkill to monitor each and every citizens private electronic communications.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/encryption-foiled-wiretaps/

This is where the terrorists are winning people. They do not like our way of life with all the freedoms we have. that is part of what they hate about western culture. And having Big Brother over every facet of our lives for our own good is one more featehr in their cap.
Keeping people living in fear and taking away freedoms and Constitutional protections is the best way to make America fall. Take away the things we have cherished since our founding days and you can say Game Over!
Ben Franklin was wise way before his time.

Seems the government s take on things is that you have no business talking to people without them knowing about it. Do you think they are reading all of our snail mail yet? Would it bother you if every letter you received was previously opened?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:04:44 PM by buzzbee » Logged
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« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2013, 05:00:05 PM »

Lines from this article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-court-judges-upset-at-portrayal-of-collaboration-with-government/2013/06/29/ed73fb68-e01b-11e2-b94a-452948b95ca8_print.html


The court historically has authorized in secret hearings classified warrants to wiretap the calls and monitor the movements of suspected criminals. After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, far-reaching programs to gather Internet and telephone content and metadata were launched under presidential authority, without congressional action or approval from the surveillance court.

The ruling was a secret not just to the public and most of Congress, but to all of Kollar-Kotelly’s surveillance court colleagues. Under orders from the president, none of the court’s other 10 members could be told about the Internet metadata program, which was one prong of a larger and highly classified data-gathering effort known as the President’s Surveillance Program, or PSP.

Sounds like a shadow government in the making.

Add to it this article and you can see they are going full throttle:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/number-of-federal-wiretaps-rose-71-percent-in-2012/2013/06/28/9ffde292-e032-11e2-963a-72d740e88c12_story.html

The last paragraph:
The report, meanwhile, said that 97 percent of the wiretaps issued last year were for “portable devices” such as mobile phones and pagers. About 87 percent of the wiretaps were issued in drug-related cases, the report said. Other equipment tapped included computers, phone land lines, fax machines and, among other things, microphones.


Yes microphones, meanig they turned on mics unknown to you in your cell phones and home computer or any other electronic gadget with mic capabilties..      Did I mention in another post that it was likely?

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