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Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 11728 times)
Moots
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« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2013, 12:52:53 PM »


The conversation would mean more to both of us if you listened to what I am saying instead of telling me what I am saying.

Oblio,
Exactly where do you think I have misrepresented what you have said?


That's somewhat true except for incidents like The El Al ticket counter at LAX, the Fort Hood massacre, the Santa Monica college shooter, the Boston bombing, etc.

While all those were terrorist events and are tragic in their own right, I think it's pretty clear to most anyone that they do not fit into the "major terrorist event" category along side 9/11.

I think Fort Hood was the worse of the incidents you mention....It involved a single gunman and resulted in 13 dead.  In comparison 9/11 involved 19 hijackers overtaking 4 commercial jets with multiple targets in multiple states, and resulted in 3,000 dead.  Pretty clearly apples and oranges!

And the shoe bomber and underwear bomber.  Some people just don’t like to keep track of the facts when it doesn’t fit their world view.  


Blue,
What facts am I not keeping track of?  You really put these two incidents on par with 9/11  huh

Yes, they could have been tragic....BUT THEY WEREN'T!  Thank God alert citizens got involved and took action.  Speaking of the concept of "telling people what they are saying", I'm not sure where anyone got the impression that I think citizen don't have an important role to play in the fight against terrorism.


We’ve also gone hundreds of years against an alien invasion Moots.  Does that mean the government is “doing something right”?  laugh


Blue, is this logic left over from when you were is 6th grade?  REALLY, I expect more...even from you.  grin


Kind of funny how quickly you want to trade away our liberty for some government excuses.  I wonder if you have the same feelings about your guns?  Are you ready to give them up too if the government tells you it will make you safer?


Blue,
I'm a realist, the only thing I've ever said is that there has to be a balance struck between personal liberties and public safety.  This isn't a new argument, it's been around forever.  By definition, being a member of any civilized society involves sacrificing a certain amount of personal liberty. Do I want to give up my guns....NO!  Do I think doing so will make me safer....NO!  But at the same time I do understand why I'm not allowed to board a commercial airliner with a loaded M16.

In my opinion, it's not a black and white argument...there's plenty of shades of gray.  My difference of opinion with Oblio is that he appears to believe that the government has no role to play and nothing to offer.  I happen to believe that's not a very realistic view.  But hey, to each his own.  That's why they make Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry ice cream!

I think we've pretty much beat this horse to death!  beat a dead horse  Obviously, we'll have to agree to disagree.


 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 01:04:09 PM by Moots » Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2013, 01:16:17 PM »

""When you go fishing, you can't catch all the fish!""

No, but we don't try to catch more by taking the fishing poles away from 90% of the fishermen, either.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Moots
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« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2013, 02:35:58 PM »

""When you go fishing, you can't catch all the fish!""

No, but we don't try to catch more by taking the fishing poles away from 90% of the fishermen, either.

OK....and who's advocating that type of approach?  Certainly not me!
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
iddee
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« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2013, 02:58:39 PM »

Our government thinks the way to keep from getting shot is to give up our guns and let the cops clean up the bloody messes. I don't think even the gun control idiots believe there will be fewer shootings.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Moots
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« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2013, 03:26:22 PM »

Our government thinks the way to keep from getting shot is to give up our guns and let the cops clean up the bloody messes. I don't think even the gun control idiots believe there will be fewer shootings.

iddee,
I agree, however, I used that analogy in the context of, just because the government may not be able to prevent ALL terrorist attacks, it doesn't mean they shouldn't make an effort to prevent any of them...
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2013, 06:53:53 PM »

I've seldom seen as many people argue over something they all basically agree on as in this thread. Each one is trying to say the same thing in a different way. I'm LMAO.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Moots
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« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2013, 04:08:22 PM »

Anyone else finds it just a little more than ironic that a guy like Snowden, who has been labeled a hero by some, claims he did what he did based on some moral high ground because he has a problem with how his country is treating it's citizens...Yet he runs to and seeks help from the likes of China, Russia and Cuba.  NOW THERE'S A TRIO WITH AN IMPRESSIVE HUMANS RIGHT RECORD!  WOW! SIMPLY WOW!!!
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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Oblio13
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« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2013, 05:52:56 PM »

There is indeed enough irony there to cause a worldwide iron shortage.

His "crime" is publicizing the very unconstitutional crimes of the government. The administration isn't unhappy about what they're doing, they're unhappy that they got caught, and they're going to continue breaking the law as they destroy him for blowing the whistle on them for breaking the law. He can never be free in the 'free' world.
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edward
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« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2013, 07:19:02 PM »

His "crime" is publicizing the very unconstitutional crimes of the government.

 applause  In a nut Shell applause Hahahaha lau
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kathyp
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« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2013, 07:28:03 PM »

no, his crime is that he broke a number of laws.  i'll even give you that there are times when laws need to be broken.  when you make that choice, you pay the consequences.   

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2013, 08:13:23 PM »

Maybe we should start calling him Nathan Hale.
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« Reply #91 on: June 25, 2013, 08:19:16 PM »

I don't think most people were aware how abusive with power this government has become until finding out all electronic communications are stored to be able to be used against you by the government. Living in this cloud of fear that only the government can protect you by restricting your personal liberties means the terrorists are winning. Every power given to the government, or better yet every freedom we allow them to dispose of puts us closer to a tyrannical overlord. It makes the feds aristocracy, not servants of the people. This people are using this to have power over your lives,not protect you from terrorism. Even the original sponsor of the Patriot act , Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner,admits this government has went well beyond the confines of the patriot act.Which in and of itself was questionable.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130612/18210323435/author-patriot-act-says-administrations-claims-about-nsa-are-bunch-bunk.shtml
Are you a traitor if the government is subverting the Constitution and you ignore it?? That is a question that also needs to be asked. We need to weed through each and every agency involved now that the lid is off of the extremism of our people in charge. They work for us,and they need to be reminded of that.
Perhaps the bigger question is who granted Snowden top security clearance.
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Oblio13
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« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2013, 10:49:51 PM »

no, his crime is that he broke a number of laws.  i'll even give you that there are times when laws need to be broken.  when you make that choice, you pay the consequences.   

Or you head for a country that won't throw you in a prison to rot for defending and supporting the constitution that you took an oath to defend and support. Ironically, China, Russia, Ecuador or Cuba.
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« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2013, 12:12:40 AM »

Here’s a motto for you Moots:

“Live Free or Die”

Guess you’ve never been to New Hampshire. laugh
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kathyp
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« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2013, 12:15:43 AM »

Quote
Ironically, China, Russia, Ecuador or Cuba.

we may find that it's something other than irony.

buzzbee, not sure that his clearance was all that high.  he was a systems tech i think.  looks like maybe he got back door access and then proceeded to download all that he could...which makes you wonder if he pulled a Manning and even knew what all he was taking.
i think there is lots more to learn about this guy.

and again, he had other options.  makes me wonder if he chose to do has he has done so that he'd get the Manning treatment from the uninformed but adoring public.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
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« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2013, 07:51:00 AM »

Here’s a motto for you Moots:

“Live Free or Die”

Guess you’ve never been to New Hampshire. laugh


Blue,
No, I've never been to New Hampshire, and it probably won't make the bucket list...  Smiley

Anyway, that's a great motto, too bad Snowden didn't opt for it, instead he went with:
"Live free or betray your country, divulge it's sensitive secrets, then run, hide, and jump in bed with China, Russia, Ecuador and Cuba!"

A little more wordy and not nearly as admirable in my book!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 08:27:10 AM by Moots » Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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Oblio13
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« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2013, 08:32:10 AM »

...
"Live free or betray your country, devulge it's sensative secrets then run hide and jump in bed with China, Russia, Ecuador and Cuba!"...

Having your emails read, your telephone calls recorded, and your browsing habits on the web turned over to the NSA is living free? Pointing out that the Fourth Amendment no longer seems to exist is betrayal? Telling the citizenry that they are being secretly surveilled is divulging sensitive secrets? Desiring to stay out of prison is running and hiding?

Maybe Snowden betrayed us, but I don't know enough yet to get out the torches and pitchforks. But I know for certain that our rulers betrayed us.

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Moots
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« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2013, 08:42:24 AM »


Maybe Snowden betrayed us, but I don't know enough yet to get out the torches and pitchforks....


Oblio,
That's an interesting opinion....considering that on your post on 6/10, a little over two weeks ago, you apparently felt like you knew enough to declare him a "true Patriot".


Snowden sacrificed his quality of life forever to at least slow the beast down. He's a true patriot.


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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2013, 09:34:02 AM »

Our rulers secretly sanctioned violation of the innocent. Once that line is crossed, there are no other boundaries. Snowden exposed them. Is that patriotism or betrayal?

It doesn't really matter. Whether his motives were altruistic or self-serving, he did us and the concept of personal liberty a huge service.

I am interested but not particularly concerned about Snowden's intentions and fate. I am very concerned about the NSA's intentions and fate.

Things are developing rapidly. Someday your grandchildren might ask you (in fearful private whispers) how this was all allowed to happen. Are you going to tell them that you thought it was a good idea at the time?
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kathyp
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« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2013, 10:19:55 AM »

Quote
Maybe Snowden betrayed us, but I don't know enough yet to get out the torches and pitchforks. But I know for certain that our rulers betrayed us.

I am interested but not particularly concerned about Snowden's intentions and fate. I am very concerned about the NSA's intentions and fate.

which i believe is the distinction i made in the first place. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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