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Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 15986 times)
Moots
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 01:04:03 PM »

It strikes me as really short sighted and naive to think of his actions as a "good thing" or heroic.

Like it or not, simple reality dictates that in order for the our government to protect us, it's citizens, some secrets must be kept...PERIOD.
I'm afraid that anyone who would argue against that point is simply living in a fantasy world....

I have the opposite point of view. Thugs are attracted to political power, and anyone who trusts them with secret surveillance, secret courts, militarized police, for-profit prisons, warrantless searches, etc. is naive. Anyone who thinks the folks who bailed out their banker buddies at our expense, who impose programs on us and exempt themselves, will act in our best interest behind closed doors is living in a fantasy world. If you give bureaucrats the authority to make decisions for you and the power to force your compliance, they will abuse that power. If you allow big government, you get big government. Not just the parts you like, you get the whole thing.

If I had to choose one, I'd rather have protection from the government than protection from terrorists.

Usurpation of civil rights is a gradual process.  The government takes a little bite of the apple, let's the dust settle, and takes another bite.  Eventually only a rotten core remains.  Most folks don't even realize - or care - that the apple is gone.  They forget they even had an apple.

Oblio,
You can go all "Ted Kaczynski" if you want, build yourself a cabin, move out to the woods, and drop off the grid if you'd like...

However, most of us realize we need a government....Sure, how big, how powerful, how much, etc. etc. is open for debate.  But the ALL Government is evil and bad, strikes me as a little extreme.

"If I had to choose one, I'd rather have protection from the government than protection from terrorists."....While this sounds bold and noble, I'm willing to bet that a vast majority of the 3,000 people who lost their life on 9/11/2001, as well as their families and friends would probably disagree with you.  Granted, my government has done some things I'm not overly proud of, but I haven't seen them flying any planes into buildings filled with innocent victims, or beheading anyone with a sword on TV.

How many 9/11 type incidents are you willing to stomach before you change your opinion?  One every decade? One every year? One every month? Once a week?  Do you really think it's blind stupid luck that we haven't had another major event in nearly 12 years.

Back to my original point....I respect and appreciate your fears of big government and the abuse of power, I share a lot of them.  Our founding fathers were pretty sharp, and realized the possibility of these dangers.  Therefore, they built a government, while not perfect, better than anything else that has ever existed....One that has checks and balances, one that has ways of handling overreaches and abuses of power.

However, allowing some 20 year old snot-nosed punk to independently decide that "he knows best" in regards to what secrets the government can and cannot keep, has never been viewed as acceptable concerning the security of our country.  Look back in history to the early years of our country and see how these people were dealt with.....as traitors, because that's what they are!  
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 06:13:32 PM »

You need to be concerned about throwing the Constitution under the bus to allow these things.The patriot act was given a very narrow set of rules in which a warrant should be issued. You really need to be concerned when people issuing warrants,secret courts and such that are accountable to noone making these decisions on who to gather data about. Ben Franklin was right about giving up freedoms in the name of security. The alphabet agencies are a threat to the checks and balances the founding fathers set up.They write the rules and regulations and do things the Congress and often executive branch claim to know nothing about.  It is out of control and needs reeled in.
  Perhaps if we became the worlds energy leader,which we could, we wouldn't be constantly at war with the brown skinned people. We are not terading partners with these people at war with us,so we could withdraw and come home and kill any one that showed up at our border.

 And again, I reference that if they were legitamately doing what they claim they are doing with this data,the Boston Bombers should have been caught before they did what they did.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 06:23:40 PM »

Does it not concern you that they will know every one that you have met with just by tracking where your cell travels and when a group of cell users gather at the same place? You think it is beyond the realm of possibilities that they could even remotely activate any audio or video device that is coonected to the web and listen to what goes on in your home? It is not hard to do these hacks.  And did you ever see any power the government has not be abused?  People need to be aware of the "cost" of security. Liberties taken are rarely returned by Big Brother.
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Moots
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 06:44:04 PM »

Does it not concern you that they will know every one that you have met with just by tracking where your cell travels and when a group of cell users gather at the same place? You think it is beyond the realm of possibilities that they could even remotely activate any audio or video device that is coonected to the web and listen to what goes on in your home? It is not hard to do these hacks.  And did you ever see any power the government has not be abused?  People need to be aware of the "cost" of security. Liberties taken are rarely returned by Big Brother.


Buzzbee,
I'm going to try and say this again...but I'm not sure how else to say it!

Yes, all of these things concern me.  I'VE NEVER SAID I APPROVE OF THEM, OR AGREE WITH THEM, OR SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT DOING THEM, OR THINK THEY ARE WITHIN THERE RIGHTS TO DO THEM.

The point I'm making is that for effective National security, some secrets must be kept....the government cannot be a completely open book.

So, if you are a realist, and willing to stipulate to this pretty basic fact.  The only remaining question is does every citizen that may be entrusted with some of this information, then have the right to individually decide what isn't right and get to expose it if they personally have an issue with it.  Again, I think this is a pretty easy question, and the answer is NO!

Don't let the fact that you didn't like what the government was doing suddenly excuse the actions of this guy.  What if he had exposed plans for some top secret new defense system because the military was invading some gnats habitat to test it.  Would you be OK with that?  I think probably not....The principles are the same!
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 08:06:56 PM »

... How many 9/11 type incidents are you willing to stomach before you change your opinion?  One every decade? One every year? One every month? Once a week? ...

I knew every crewmember on AA #11, one was quite close. I also dated a woman killed in the WTC. It's pure chance that I wasn't the Captain on AA #11, I flew it often. And yet if I'm rational rather than emotional, I have to acknowledge that the deaths on 9/11 were equivalent to a holiday weekend of traffic accidents. It pales into insignificance compared to things like tobacco-related deaths. Where's the outrage for something that kills millions every year? We put warnings on cigarette packages, but at the same time we're subsidizing tobacco growers. These are the people you want to abdicate your self-reliance to?

And there are ways we could have resisted terrorism with more freedom rather than less. Citizens of a free country would be part of the defense, and proud of it. Instead we are being categorically treated like un-indicted terrorists.
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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2013, 09:38:58 PM »

Quote
And there are ways we could have resisted terrorism with more freedom rather than less. Citizens of a free country would be part of the defense, and proud of it. Instead we are being categorically treated like un-indicted terrorists.

i appreciate your point of view and if i were an idealist, or blissfully unaware, i'd be right there with you.  i am neither.  9/11 happened because we had people in charge of things who didn't pay attention or didn't think it would really happen.  the only thing that surprised me about that day is that it hadn't happened earlier. we'd been gaming it since the early 80's.
the only surprise i have had in the last few years is that there have not been more domestic attacks. 

without going off into places i shouldn't go, i have heard from reliable sources that we have dodged the bullet many times since.  that those attacks we have suffered were insignificant compared to what has been stopped. 

there is a line between security and freedom, but i think it's a wavy line.  there are things we need to fix and things that we need to put up with. 

my argument is not with security, secrets, spying, or the lack of it.  my argument here is with a kid who broke his word, and broke the law, in a way that puts our methods and security at risk.  he did this without regard for consequences to security.  he had other options, but he chose to do this .  he deserves the consequences.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2013, 09:48:30 PM »

Oblio, since you are making comparisons, ""tobacco"", try this one.
A lawyer gets a murder confession from his client. He is even given positive proof.

Should the lawyer go to the police with that info?
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2013, 10:17:04 PM »

... there is a line between security and freedom...

I like to think of the spectrum this way:

For the 'Freedom' end of the spectrum, let's visualize the Rocky Mountains during the wild fur trade era. Kit Carson, Jim Bridger, et al had complete freedom from laws. There were no authorities whatever to constrain them from traveling, drinking, raping, killing, stealing, anything.

For the other end of the spectrum, let's visualize a maximum security prison. Great efforts are made to control and monitor every person all the time.

Which end of that spectrum is likely to produce the kind of citizens we're proud of? Which end would you like to live closer to? Which end are we drifting rapidly towards?

Our leaders confiscate funds directly from people's bank accounts. They seize reporters' personal records and phone logs. They're spying on everyone's emails. They've authorized military detention and assassinations of citizens. They're using the IRS to punish dissidents. They tell us when, where, how and if we're allowed to defend ourselves. They even tell us what we are allowed to eat and drink. How long would our traditional American heroes have put up with crap like that?

What we need even more than protection from terrorists is protection from our protectors.
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iddee
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2013, 10:27:17 PM »

I didn't see your answer to my question. Did the gov. delete it before I got back?
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2013, 10:35:27 PM »

Amen for Oblio13 posts!

I heard Jesus also broke some “laws”.  Moots does that make him a villain too?
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iddee
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2013, 10:45:28 PM »

How about you, blue? You want to answer my question about the lawyer. Oblio doesn't seem to be going to.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2013, 10:50:53 PM »

If guess it depends upon who’s "rule" you live by iddee.

I know what I would do in a heartbeat.  Hence I’m not a lawyer.
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iddee
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« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2013, 10:53:45 PM »

And after what you would do hit the media,how many would be harmed because they were afraid to trust their lawyer?
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2013, 10:56:34 PM »

Amen for Oblio13 posts!

I heard Jesus also broke some “laws”.  Moots does that make him a villain too?


So, Snowden is the son of God...is that your argument Blue?  laugh

If they convict Snowden for treason and put him to death...and he happens to rise from the dead 3 days later, I'll gladly reevaluate my opinion. But until then, he a traitorous zero in my book...SORRY!  Smiley

If you want to make him your hero, by all means admire and worship whoever you want. It's a free country.  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2013, 11:05:40 PM »

ah yes, the good old days when you could shoot anyone and anything.  we don't live there anymore.  if all the terrorists had were single shot muskets, i'd not worry to much about them.

besides, you are missing the point completely.

lets try this:  during ww2 we had intel that let us listen to the germans.  would it have been ok for that info to be made public because someone thought it was a good idea to share?  we also were building a bomb.  at that time, some of the scientist shared info with russia because they thought it was a good idea for them to have the same tech.  no only did that choice put this country at risk, but it led to decades of cold war. 

one of the reasons we lost 20 some members of seal team 6 is that we shared intel with the afghan army and someone leaked.  one of the reasons it took a decade to get UBL is because someone leaked.  now...who gets to choose what is a good leak and what is a bad one when it comes to intel?

the problem of people not being able to come forward and tell about government wrongdoing was addressed by the whisteblower law.  if ever there were a case where that law would have applied, it is this one.  because this guy chose not to use it, i have no sympathy for him.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2013, 11:49:53 PM »

And after what you would do hit the media,how many would be harmed because they were afraid to trust their lawyer?
huh Did the Kingbee hijack your account  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2013, 07:32:29 AM »

If the gov could be trusted to use collected info for security, non political purposes, then go for it. With this irs thing  its been proven they are not to be trusted..I am not willing to make that trade.
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2013, 07:53:29 AM »

Normal non-answer there, blue. Looks like I've got you and Oblio over a barrel and it's fun watching you squirm.

Kathy isn't saying whether it's the public's right to know or not. She's saying it wasn't this character's job to let it out. There's a difference there, you know.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2013, 08:11:40 AM »

iddee,
They simply refuse to separate those two different, distinct facts!  huh

A mere 6 days ago over on Blue's Tesla thread addressed towards you, he's telling me,

"Moots, as for not doing what the politicians demand; that sounds good on paper, but we are a land of laws.  See how far you can get next time fighting City Hall."

Now suddenly, because he likes what this snot-nosed punk did, Laws don't matter...we even have Blue preaching to us that Jesus broke laws, so somehow we're trying to jam up poor little Snowden on some meaningless, inconsequential technicality.

LOL!  SO BLUE, which is it....Are we a nation of laws, as you claimed 6 days ago...Or, are we not?  Or do YOU simply get to pick and choose which laws must be followed?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 08:34:49 AM »

... do YOU simply get to pick and choose which laws must be followed?

We all pick and choose the laws we follow. Have you ever broken a speed limit? Let your dog off the leash? Tried pot? Failed to report and pay taxes on cash income, gifts or barters? And further, we have a civic duty to disobey unjust laws.

Lawyers, beekeepers, we follow our conscience - or not - and then live with our decisions. Sometimes the choices are easy, sometimes not.

It looks to me, so far, like Snowden acted out of altruism, and that he has harmed no one that shouldn't have been harmed.
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