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Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 15792 times)
kathyp
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« on: June 10, 2013, 03:38:37 PM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

i am glad that this info is out there.  obviously we need to have the national debate about this again.  history may call this guy a hero, but i am reluctant to do so.

1st, he is not a whistleblower.  there is legal protection for whistleblowing and there are procedures.  he chose not to follow them.  he could have gone to someone like Rand Paul with his info and immediately invoked the protection.  i am curious as to why he did not do this.

if we make heroes of those who spew classified info at their own discretion...if we protect them because they were following their own moral code...then no info will ever be safe.  the only difference between what this kid did and what manning did, is that manning didn't know what he was releasing or to whom.  there was no moral imperative for manning.  he was just acting out.  that appears not to be the case here, but the law was still broken and i don't see how we can let that go by.  he had other options.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 05:43:32 PM »

Sunshine is an excellent disinfectant. applause
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 06:14:39 PM »

it is, but that's not my point.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 06:29:27 PM »

Sunshine is an excellent disinfectant. applause

And, as always....Blue will be nice enough to define for everyone else, exactly what is sunshine, and exactly what requires disinfectant.  laugh

I'm much closer to the word trader in these cases than hero.  Do we really think we can sustain an appropriate defense of this country when every 20 something year old kid thinks they are morally superior and know whats best for the country.

As Kathy said, there are appropriate ways he could have called attention to this....anything short of that, I have no sympathy, regardless of what's being exposed.

Isn't it the left always accusing us conservatives of thinking the ends justify the means?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 09:02:01 PM »

The sad thing is that he becomes the story. Not what he has revealed.
   This goes far and beyond what was authorized by the Patriot act. And that went to far as far as Congress overstepping their bounds for our own good. I did not favor giving acronym departments thse kind of unregulated powers then and I surely do not now. With all of the excuses of doing it for National Security these clowns should have been able to head off the Boston bombings.The clues were there, and they were even warned by the Russians.  Surely this whole deal is to collect sensitive data to be used against people who stand up against their government.
  The government is the last group we should be trusting with the reams of data on every citizen of the US right down to our phone calls and emails. Warrantless searches are unconstitutional and gathering the data in case they would ever need to review your past? How could that possibly be a bad thing?
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 09:05:35 PM »

Does it bother you that every cell phone and wifi device transmits enough data to locate you right down to the floor of a building you were in and that data is being recorded to be able to be used against you if the need ever arises? And you will not have access to the same data base that may prove your innocence?
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 09:12:54 PM »

Lets drive them crazy, we should all pick a great turn off the cell phone and wifi device day and let them wonder what happened to the data stream.
 Perhaps if we used conventional mail for correspondence we could be charged with obstructing justice.

Here is an article about then Senator Obama. Think he'd give the same speech today?

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/06/06/Obama-in-2007-No-More-Spying-on-Citizens-Not-Suspected-of-a-Crime
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 09:31:43 PM »

i had/have mixed feelings about all this stuff.  we really did need to update the laws to reflect new tech.  this update is not unregulated, but any time the government can get into your stuff, you have a risk. 

it appears to me, not being a lawyer, but having read the laws as they were developed and the following court cases, that this gathering of info was done outside the scope of the laws.  i also wonder what kind of an expectation of privacy the courts will find that we have, when we are using so much tech that is stored in the cloud, transmitted wirelessly, etc.  it will be interesting to find out.

to be honest, i am less fussed about a mass gathering of stored data than i am about the IRS being used as a weapon against certain people, or that the government sat by and watched our people die so as not to disturbed a template or our "friends".  those are both moral failings, where the gathering of my tea cake recipe and a call the my sister overseas, are not.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 10:02:45 PM »

We secretly monitor our citizen's phone calls and emails. The mechanisms are in place for indefinite detention without trial. We have random searches and DUI checkpoints to which citizens must submit even though no law has been broken, no property damaged, no probable cause exists, no warrant has been served. Our leaders use our tax collectors to punish political opponents. They want the citizenry disarmed so badly that they smuggled guns to Mexican drug dealers so that they could be the "solution" to the "problem". They systematically train their power base to feel helpless and be dependent, and to resent anyone who has more than they do. Homeland Security, which was supposed to be just an umbrella to simplify organization, has essentially become a mechanized infantry division. We all want to believe that "it can't happen here", but this is totalitarianism just waiting for the right crisis.

Snowden sacrificed his quality of life forever to at least slow the beast down. He's a true patriot.
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 10:14:47 PM »

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Snowden sacrificed his quality of life forever to at least slow the beast down. He's a true patriot.

i'm sure every leaker thinks that.  will you feel the same when the next one leaks something that kills our troops?  i guess i might feel differently if he'd had no other choice, but he did.  that makes me wonder why he chose this path.

on the rest...i pretty much agree with you   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 08:17:30 AM »

I may have missed something in his statements, probably have not seen  or read the whole thing. But I have not seen any info leaked except that the gov is and has been collecting this data, right now, leaning to its a good thing..
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 10:35:34 AM »

he apparently turned over a copy of the FISA warrant that should have been pretty closely guarded.  i did not see it if it was published.  just heard about it.  guess also details of the data collecting, but again....

on this  i admit that i have not done my usual data vacuuming.   grin  just been to busy on another project.  this one is less interesting to me except for the whole thing of making him a hero.  that bugs me because of the implications for future leakers. i'm thinking that the Manning thing led this guy to do as he did...knowing that an uninformed public, and pos who should know better, would embrace  him and make him a hero.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 11:09:50 AM »

It strikes me as really short sighted and naive to think of his actions as a "good thing" or heroic.

Like it or not, simple reality dictates that in order for the our government to protect us, it's citizens, some secrets must be kept...PERIOD.
I'm afraid that anyone who would argue against that point is simply living in a fantasy world.  While there are many responsible citizens that would like to know every move our government makes, it's simply impossible for that knowledge to be shared without it falling into the bad guys hands, thus rendering it ineffective and useless.

To somehow rationalize that every 20 something year old kid who's job may entrust him or her with such information has the right to apply their own morale filter to this information and independently decide whether its something that the public "needs to know" is not only ludicrous, but extremely dangerous.   
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 11:13:16 AM »

Doing things because the law states that you must, and doing things because it seems like the "politically correct" thing to do and the "politicians demand" it are two Very, VERY different things.

Just sayin'

Maybe you should re-read Oblios post?
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Moots
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 11:15:31 AM »

Doing things because the law states that you must, and doing things because it seems like the "politically correct" thing to do and the "politicians demand" it are two Very, VERY different things.

Just sayin'


Is there a point here Blue?  Or, is it simply throw out a random quote from another thread day?  huh
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
Moots
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 11:19:31 AM »

Doing things because the law states that you must, and doing things because it seems like the "politically correct" thing to do and the "politicians demand" it are two Very, VERY different things.

Just sayin'

Maybe you should re-read Oblios post?


OK....

I reread it!  What's your point?

Two wrongs make a right?

Bad behavior justifies bad behavior?

The ends justifies the means???

Help me out, I'm still not seeing where this kid is anywhere close to a hero or patriot?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 11:37:03 AM »


to be honest, i am less fussed about a mass gathering of stored data than i am about the IRS being used as a weapon against certain people, or that the government sat by and watched our people die so as not to disturbed a template or our "friends".  those are both moral failings, where the gathering of my tea cake recipe and a call the my sister overseas, are not.


I'm with you Kathy.  The IRS things is a much more disturbing to me than this is.  O could have stopped all of this that Bush started with the Patriot Act but did not.  However, he had the choice.  With the IRS scandal the seeds are sown to keep one philosophy in power for extended periods of time, which makes it even less likely things like this would be stopped by the next POTUS.

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sterling
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 12:19:11 PM »

I would never think this leaker is a hero.
The Govt. needs secret data but not on private law abiding citizens. But on war mongering terrorist that they say do not exit.
 But the Govt has taken this too far and they know that. All you have to do to know this for yourself is to listen to Obama defend it. Everything Obama says he will not do is the very thing he does and everything he says he is not doing is exactly the thing he is doing.

And I do not think this tracking of personal info and the IRS thing are totally separate. Do you not think He [Obama] will use this type of information he gathers from personal phones and computers to target his enemies [conservatives, republican fund raisers, veterans ect.]? Put this personal info in the hands of a skilled IRS person and watch what they can do for the cause.
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Oblio13
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 12:29:58 PM »

It strikes me as really short sighted and naive to think of his actions as a "good thing" or heroic.

Like it or not, simple reality dictates that in order for the our government to protect us, it's citizens, some secrets must be kept...PERIOD.
I'm afraid that anyone who would argue against that point is simply living in a fantasy world....

I have the opposite point of view. Thugs are attracted to political power, and anyone who trusts them with secret surveillance, secret courts, militarized police, for-profit prisons, warrantless searches, etc. is naive. Anyone who thinks the folks who bailed out their banker buddies at our expense, who impose programs on us and exempt themselves, will act in our best interest behind closed doors is living in a fantasy world. If you give bureaucrats the authority to make decisions for you and the power to force your compliance, they will abuse that power. If you allow big government, you get big government. Not just the parts you like, you get the whole thing.

If I had to choose one, I'd rather have protection from the government than protection from terrorists.

Usurpation of civil rights is a gradual process.  The government takes a little bite of the apple, let's the dust settle, and takes another bite.  Eventually only a rotten core remains.  Most folks don't even realize - or care - that the apple is gone.  They forget they even had an apple.
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kathyp
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 12:33:33 PM »

Quote
Do you not think He [Obama] will use this type of information he gathers from personal phones and computers to target his enemies [conservatives, republican fund raisers, veterans ect.]?

don't get me wrong.  i am not in favor of massive collection of data for exactly the reason you bring up.  the IRS comparison is a good one.  look how much info they have and how much more they will have with obama care.  people are already afraid of them and that fear will increase with the collection of more info and the abuse of power.  

most people don't understand intel collection and analysis.  it's not a straight forward thing.  if you have ever had an idea and sat down to do a google search, you might understand it this way:  you enter a search word and 150 links pop up.  many look interesting and you start clicking through them.  2 hours later you have looked at 100 sites, but only 3 are worth anything.  

that's what it's like to go through intel.  you know there is something out there.  you are looking for the threads that connect.  most of what you find is worthless, but you have to look at it anyway.
so then....the line between what you need, and what you end up with, is very blurred and privacy is compromised, not because you care about Suzies brownie bomb cupcakes, but because Suzie is married to Achmed and the words bomb and Achmed flagged her recipe.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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