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Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 11886 times)
kingbee
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« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2013, 11:22:37 PM »

iddee, I am not trying to answer for your friend BlueBee, but no lawyer would ever try to discover the innocence or guilt of his client because if the client said that he did it, then I believe that it is the lawyers' sworn duty as an officer of the court to inform the court, thus freeing the lawyer from becoming an accomplice after the fact.  Then on top of that, the lawyer ratting the criminal out violates the defendant's client attorney privilege under the 4Th and 5th Amendments. police  

The same amendments by the way now under attack by the Obama administration.  Thus invalidating the very Constitution that we all so lightly claim to hold so dear.  If life was so cut and dried then we all would be good at it.
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Oblio13
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« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2013, 07:17:00 AM »

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." - Ian Kershaw

People who do not love us are gathering information about us without our knowledge and using it to make decisions about us without our participation. And most of us don't care.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2013, 08:05:00 AM »

>People who do not love us are gathering information about us without our knowledge and using it to make decisions about us without our participation. And most of us don't care.

Perfect summary of that situation.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Moots
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« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2013, 08:17:26 AM »

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." - Ian Kershaw

People who do not love us are gathering information about us without our knowledge and using it to make decisions about us without our participation. And most of us don't care.

Oblio,
Fair enough....don't think I can, or would want to argue with anything in your above statement.

However, If you would....explain to me "exactly" how "we as a country" are suppose to find, identify, track, and prevent those with evil intentions who have stated and demonstrated that they would like to BLOW UP innocent men. women and children in this country, on a daily basis, and a scale larger than 9/11 if allowed.

Should we use a magic 8 ball?  Or, as long as the numbers stay below tobacco and vehicle accident numbers do we just remain "rational" instead of "emotional" and accept it?

And I ask again....Exactly, how much do you tolerate before "something" must be done.  And what exactly should that "something" be?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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Oblio13
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« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2013, 08:41:31 AM »

Nobody knows more about terrorism than the Israelis. The only reason that nation still exists is because the citizenry has been trained to be alert, responsible and self-reliant, and they are allowed to defend themselves. Typically what happens when a Palestinian goes on a spree is that someone - a school teacher or a bus driver - shoots them or at least keeps them pinned down until the authorities can arrive. Visitors to Israel are initially shocked to see M16s everywhere, but it quickly becomes normal.

In other words, the citizenry is viewed as part of the solution.

America is taking the opposite tack. We train citizens to be afraid and dependent, and we try to monitor everything they do or say. The message is "Make yourselves helpless and we'll take care of you".

Terrorism will inevitably become more common in America. Abdicating autonomy might save a few sheep from the wolves, but in the meantime they're all getting fleeced by the shepherd.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:02:09 AM by Oblio13 » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2013, 10:38:54 AM »

Israel is also so small that you can't find it on a map unless you know where it is.  they suffer constant attacks.  yes, they know how to defend themselves.  it would be kind of nice if we didn't get to that point.  in a country this size, having things like the Boston bombing happening on a regular basis would be unfortunate.

the only thing that has surprised me since 9/11 is that we have not had more of the boston type attacks.  i suspect it is not for lack of effort on the terrorists part.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Oblio13
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« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2013, 11:00:47 AM »

The Boston bombers killed a grand total of three people. Not to make light of it, but let's keep it in perspective: That's an average afternoon in some of our large cities.

But in Boston, we put an entire city under house arrest, suspended the Fifth Amendment, did door-to-door searches treating people like criminals, and mobilized tens of thousands of police with tanks and helicopters. It cost a billion dollars, not even counting lost productivity. Watch the Youtube videos of the police dragging people out of their homes by their hair, at gunpoint. It's a minor miracle that they didn't blow away more people than the bombers. Even if that was the right thing to do, we simply can't afford it very often. And when everything was all said and done, it was an ordinary citizen who found Tsarnaev anyway.

We WILL have more and more terrorist attacks, and we WILL have to learn to just endure a certain number of them. The only question is how our leaders will behave in response. And so far, their response isn't as rosy as I like my roses to be. The illusion of a little more safety doesn't seem worth having no privacy and being disarmed, monitored and controlled like a child molester.

The demand to "DO SOMETHING!", and the philosophy that "It's worth it if it saves even one life" is almost always a counterproductive overreaction.

Allowing themselves to be herded like sheep is a mistake free people only get to make once.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:13:33 AM by Oblio13 » Logged
BlueBee
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« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2013, 05:29:53 PM »

 applause applause applause
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Moots
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« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2013, 07:15:25 PM »

Oblio,
So if I understand correctly from your last two post, your suggestion is that the United States, a country that covers 3.7 Million square miles with a population of 319 Million people, should model it's anti terrorist efforts after a country that's barely 8,000 square miles with a population of 7.8 Million.  Hmm...I'm not sure how practical that really is....

Your other big advice for "handling" the problem is, basically a defeatist attitude of, Hey...it's gonna happen, so get used to it!

All I can say is Blue is easily impressed....I'm not seeing it!

 
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
Oblio13
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« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2013, 07:19:53 PM »

How's this for simple: I don't want a government that monitors my emails and phone calls like a psycho ex-girlfriend.
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Moots
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« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2013, 07:38:59 PM »

How's this for simple: I don't want a government that monitors my emails and phone calls like a psycho ex-girlfriend.

Oblio,
And I don't like having to take off my shoes and empty my pockets to get on a plane.  But some things are simply the new norm for the world we now live it.

I get your fears and concerns about the government overreaching, trust me, I share most if not all of them.  But a balance has to be struck...your dreams of issuing every citizen an M-16 and returning to the rules that were in play in the Rocky Mountains during the wild fur trade era, simply isn't an option and isn't going to happen.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
kathyp
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« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2013, 08:11:34 PM »

hate to date myself, but i never got much of a thrill from the duck and cover drills  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Oblio13
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« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2013, 09:07:47 PM »

Israel is also so small that you can't find it on a map ...

... your suggestion is that the United States, a country that covers 3.7 Million square miles with a population of 319 Million people, should model it's anti terrorist efforts after a country that's barely 8,000 square miles with a population of 7.8 Million.  Hmm...I'm not sure how practical that really is....

What difference does size make? If anything, with the resources we have, we could be even more effective.

... Your other big advice for "handling" the problem is, basically a defeatist attitude...

On the contrary. I'm advocating self-reliance rather than abdicating your responsibility to defend yourself and your family to bureaucrats. When evil comes calling, fight. Don't cower and hope someone arrives in time to save you. The real "first responder" if you're in a dire situation is YOU. The time it takes a trained shooter to draw from concealment and put a hole in a target: approximately two seconds. The time it takes Barney Fife to respond to your 911 call, assuming you can use your phone and that he doesn't choke on his donut or wet his pants: approximately longer than two seconds.

... some things are simply the new norm...

If you think things like secret surveillance, secret courts and assuming the surrender position in the radiation machine at the airport are okay, good news: the country is going your way.
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Moots
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« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2013, 10:24:15 PM »

What difference does size make? If anything, with the resources we have, we could be even more effective.

Hate to be the one to break it to you Oblio, but size does matter.  grin  Besides, what resources? You don't want the Government involved in doing anything...

On the contrary. I'm advocating self-reliance rather than abdicating your responsibility to defend yourself and your family to bureaucrats. When evil comes calling, fight. Don't cower and hope someone arrives in time to save you. The real "first responder" if you're in a dire situation is YOU. The time it takes a trained shooter to draw from concealment and put a hole in a target: approximately two seconds. The time it takes Barney Fife to respond to your 911 call, assuming you can use your phone and that he doesn't choke on his donut or wet his pants: approximately longer than two seconds.

Oblio,
I think you're confusing apples and oranges...

I'm all for self-reliance and responsibility to defend myself and my family.  I also recognize and am discouraged by the entitlement mentality where everyone wants to sit around and wait for someone to show up and fix their hardships and problems.

EXAMPLES OF APPLES:
If someone breaks into my house, by all means, I'm prepared and ready to handle that situation.  If I take my wife out for a nice dinner in New Orleans, I'm aware of where I park and walk, I'm observant of my surroundings, and make every reasonable effort to avoid placing us is a compromising or vulnerable position...Again, should some thug or thugs approach us with bad intentions, I feel I'm adequately prepared and equipped to handle that situation.

So I fully understand, comprehend, and agree with the basic premise that in such situations, if you want your "you know what saved", you better be prepared to save it yourself.


EXAMPLE OF ORANGES:
That being said...If I want to take my wife to an LSU Football game on a Saturday night and sit in a stadium with 93,000 other fans and cheer on my team.  How "exactly" am I suppose to take personal responsibility for being reasonably confident that some al Qaeda cell or home grown terrorist hasn't parked a Ryder Truck full of Diesel fuel and fertilizer just outside my section.

Simply put, there's no way for me to personally do that....

So, my choices are to put some faith in my local, state, and federal government to attempt to identify and disrupt such plots.  Or, think that my government is the problem and adopt a defeatist attitude like you as evident by your statement:
We WILL have more and more terrorist attacks, and we WILL have to learn to just endure a certain number of them.

For my money, that simply isn't a good enough answer!
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
kingbee
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« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2013, 11:51:32 PM »

Nobody knows more about terrorism than the Israelis. The only reason that nation still exists is because the citizenry has been trained to be alert, responsible and , and they are allowed to defend themselves. Typically what happens when a Palestinian goes on a spree is that someone - a school teacher or a bus driver - shoots them or at least keeps them pinned down until the authorities can arrive. Visitors to Israel are initially shocked to see M16s everywhere, but it quickly becomes normal.

In other words, the citizenry is viewed as part of the solution.

America is taking the opposite tack. We train citizens to be afraid and dependent, and we try to monitor everything they do or say. The message is "Make yourselves helpless and we'll take care of you".

Terrorism will inevitably become more common in America. Abdicating autonomy might save a few sheep from the wolves, but in the meantime they're all getting fleeced by the shepherd.

Not to make too much out of it but in my opinion the real reason there are no more attacks against Israel than there already are is not because the Jews are armed to the teeth but because as much as Mohammedan terrorist want to go to heaven, they are not willing to see Israel put their extended family into the same unmarked grave.  One man killing himself is no detriment.  Systematical killing and dispossessing, hundreds is.  The Prophet promises every suicide bomber or other martyr to the faith immediate entry into paradise without the martyr having to stand with fez in hand outside the pearly gates for half an eternity.  He can start deflowering his 72 virgins without delay.  Not only that but Allah promises that every enemy killed by a faithful Mohammedan will become that believer's personal slave in paradise.  So in the Mohammedan mind, killing a Christian or Jewish woman or young boy augments the Mohammedans' 72 virgin sex slaves.  It remains to be seen if the Jewish State is focused on survival or if like America, Israel is preoccupied with the Kardashians'.

In human history 500 years is a blink of the eye.  But it is more than enough time for a nation to totally disappear.

Obilo13 What you say about Israel and preparedness is true.  Do remember however what happened in Hebron in 1994 when a Jewish Settler named Goldstein went postal on unarmed worshipers in the Mosque of Abraham.  Despite Goldstein being the only armed man in sight, despite the fact that for security reasons Israel only allowed old men to worship inside the Mosque of Abraham, despite Goldstein killing 29 and wounding 125 more, the old men took care of business with only a metal fire extinguisher.  After the shouting was over the medics had to scrape Goldstein's body off the floor with a putty knife.  I indicated in an earlier post that wars are won by the side who fights last.  It is still true, and it always will be.       
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Oblio13
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« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2013, 07:41:39 AM »

... So, my choices are to put some faith in my local, state, and federal government to attempt to identify and disrupt such plots.  Or, think that my government is the problem and adopt a defeatist attitude like you as evident by your statement:
We WILL have more and more terrorist attacks, and we WILL have to learn to just endure a certain number of them.

For my money, that simply isn't a good enough answer!

We can't keep weapons and drugs out of even maximum-security prisons. So the question is, "How much personal liberty are you willing to give up in pursuit of an impossible goal?"

Our choices are:

1. Be reasonably free and live with some danger.

2. Be serfs and live with some danger.
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Moots
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« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2013, 10:18:18 AM »


We can't keep weapons and drugs out of even maximum-security prisons. So the question is, "How much personal liberty are you willing to give up in pursuit of an impossible goal?"


Oblio,
You say, "We can't keep weapons and drugs out of even maximum-security prisons."....I'm not sure I see your point!  When you go fishing, you can't catch all the fish!  We don't catch ALL the murderers, rapist, robbers, and thieves....Does that mean we should stop trying to catch any of them.  huh

On one hand you claim it's an "impossible goal" (there's that defeatist attitude again)....On the other hand you claim that anything short of absolute perfection isn't worth the effort.

With all your criticism of the government, the FACT remains, this nation has gone nearly 12 years since 9/11 without a major terrorist event on our soil, obviously, they must be doing something right.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
Oblio13
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« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2013, 11:03:32 AM »


Oblio,
You say, "We can't keep weapons and drugs out of even maximum-security prisons."....I'm not sure I see your point!  When you go fishing, you can't catch all the fish!  We don't catch ALL the murderers, rapist, robbers, and thieves....Does that mean we should stop trying to catch any of them.  huh

It means, as I said above, that we will have to live with a certain amount of violence no matter what we do. Even if we turn our country into a maximum-security prison in our quest for a violence-free utopia, we will still have a certain amount of violence. We have to choose where to draw the line, and so far where we are drawing the line is a huge overreaction that is turning us into a totalitarian police state. Personally, I'd rather take my chances going to a baseball game than have secret courts making secret decisions about me after they monitor my phone calls and emails. I realize that I hold the minority opinion.  

...On one hand you claim it's an "impossible goal" (there's that defeatist attitude again)....On the other hand you claim that anything short of absolute perfection isn't worth the effort.

The conversation would mean more to both of us if you listened to what I am saying instead of telling me what I am saying.

With all your criticism of the government, the FACT remains, this nation has gone nearly 12 years since 9/11 without a major terrorist event on our soil, obviously, they must be doing something right.

That's somewhat true except for incidents like The El Al ticket counter at LAX, the Fort Hood massacre, the Santa Monica college shooter, the Boston bombing, etc.

Most terrorist plots are foiled because people, including terrorists, tend to be stupid and/or alert citizens like you and I intervene. We should encourage this.

On the other hand, the usual FBI sting is to recruit potential terrorists, give them ideas about how to be terrorists, supply them with fake terrorist weapons, and then arrest them and have a news conference. It has some merit, but most of those people are not true threats, and it's a technique that can get out of hand very quickly.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2013, 11:26:52 AM »

And the shoe bomber and underwear bomber.  Some people just don’t like to keep track of the facts when it doesn’t fit their world view.  

We’ve also gone hundreds of years against an alien invasion Moots.  Does that mean the government is “doing something right”?  laugh

Kind of funny how quickly you want to trade away our liberty for some government excuses.  I wonder if you have the same feelings about your guns?  Are you ready to give them up too if the government tells you it will make you safer?
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Oblio13
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« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2013, 11:46:11 AM »

And the shoe bomber and underwear bomber...

Also both thwarted by true patriots - citizens who stepped up to the plate.
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