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Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 12646 times)
oliver
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 08:49:24 AM »

Still cannot find  any thing he leaked that is harmful to well being, merely put the spotlight on gov practices that probably violate the constitution.
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Moots
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 08:52:36 AM »

... do YOU simply get to pick and choose which laws must be followed?

We all pick and choose the laws we follow. Have you ever broken a speed limit? Let your dog off the leash? Tried pot? Failed to report and pay taxes on cash income, gifts or barters? And further, we have a civic duty to disobey unjust laws.

Lawyers, beekeepers, we follow our conscience - or not - and then live with our decisions. Sometimes the choices are easy, sometimes not.

It looks to me, so far, like Snowden acted out of altruism, and that he has harmed no one that shouldn't have been harmed.

Oblio,
You pretty much lost me when you wanted to make it a pure "numbers" game and equate the lives lost on 9/11 to tobacco use and vehicle crashes...And proceed to tell me it should be viewed "rationally, not emotionally".  I'm all for viewing things rationally and logically...However, ANY american that doesn't have an emotional view of 9/11 baffles me, especially one that personally knew victims.

And now you are going to equate leaking and revealing National secrets of the highest level with speeding???......

And for the record, yes...I have broken the speed limit, I've never lived where there is a leash law, and I've never tried pot.  Any laws I've ever broken, I've been willing to accept the consequences of my actions.  I've never fled the country to Hong Kong and somehow expected to be given hero status because of my illegal actions.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:25:28 AM by Moots » Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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Moots
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 08:54:48 AM »

Still cannot find  any thing he leaked that is harmful to well being, merely put the spotlight on gov practices that probably violate the constitution.

Oliver,
That's kind of the whole point....I seriously doubt that you, or Snowden for that matter, are in a position to fully know the potential consequences of the damage that could be caused by what's been leaked.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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oliver
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 09:30:49 AM »

point, whats been leaked
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iddee
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 09:31:29 AM »

Dang, Oblio, this government intrusion is getting terrible. They done deleted your answer to me about the lawyer again. Maybe snowden can tell us who keeps doing it.   evil   grin   grin
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Oblio13
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2013, 10:13:28 AM »

Dang, Oblio, this government intrusion is getting terrible. They done deleted your answer to me about the lawyer again. Maybe snowden can tell us who keeps doing it.   evil   grin   grin

I'll cut-and-paste it again for you:

"Lawyers, beekeepers, we follow our conscience - or not - and then live with our decisions. Sometimes the choices are easy, sometimes not."
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Moots
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2013, 10:15:10 AM »


point, whats been leaked

Oliver,
I don't know, I have a full time job, and it's not with the NSA...

I don't know what all exactly was leaked, my guess is neither do you, my guess is Snowden doesn't even have a grasp on the totality of all of it....and quite possibly the NSA is still trying to identify it all.

But since you, Blue and Oblio are comfortable with it....I guess we should just drop the whole subject and move on.

Sorry, but that's not good enough for me...The simply reality is, YOU DON'T KNOW, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW!
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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iddee
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2013, 10:24:45 AM »

"Lawyers, beekeepers, we follow our conscience - or not - and then live with our decisions. Sometimes the choices are easy, sometimes not."

That still isn't saying whether it is right or wrong. Are you afraid of admitting when you are wrong about something?
The question was, "should" the lawyer go to the police with the info.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Oblio13
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2013, 10:30:50 AM »

I'm not a lawyer. I haven't put much thought into legal ethics. I can imagine scenarios on both sides of the issue. I don't know if a lawyer's greatest obligation is to his client, society or his conscience.

If I had a black-and-white answer for you, I'd give it to you.
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iddee
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2013, 11:12:08 AM »

Thank You. I agree with you completely. Now apply this to snowden and you will see why I haven't posted an opinion on what he did. I am only commenting on the fact that the thread is discussing two or three different things and no one can ever agree on anything until they start talking about the same issue.

I agree with you that the people need to know if someone is watching them and sneaking info about them.

I also agree with Kathyp that it was NOT snowden's job to tell them.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
ch.cool
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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2013, 12:28:25 PM »

Hi, I grow up behind the communist wall and he is a hero for me. Do you really think he would have had a chance to bring this problem to superior officials and they would jump on it to change it. Aren't this the guys they gave the NSA the fredom to do whatever they think it needs to be done. I feel some times, I'm back in time. I'm just waiting to hear that my friends spying on me like they did in east Germany.
Ch.cool
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Oblio13
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2013, 12:41:54 PM »

Hi, I grow up behind the communist wall and he is a hero for me. Do you really think he would have had a chance to bring this problem to superior officials and they would jump on it to change it. Aren't this the guys they gave the NSA the fredom to do whatever they think it needs to be done. I feel some times, I'm back in time. I'm just waiting to hear that my friends spying on me like they did in east Germany.
Ch.cool

Bullseye, Ch.cool.

We all want to believe "it can't happen here", but the evidence is overwhelming and anyone who can't see is is willfully blind.

I'm going to send him some money if he sets up a legal defense fund.

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kathyp
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2013, 01:39:38 PM »

Quote
Do you really think he would have had a chance to bring this problem to superior officials and they would jump on it to change it.

if he had tried to go to someone like Rand Paul and had not gotten anywhere, I would feel different.  i actually agree with him that this is stuff we need to know.  what bothers me is that we are willing to accept his leaking because we like what he leaked, but the next person who leaks something that gets people killed, will be vilified....maybe....they are still trying to make a hero out of Manning and i think he should be executed.

we may not like the laws that we have.  we have mechanisms for changing them.  we have mechanisms for changing leadership.  you can make the case that we have to many laws.  that the laws are oppressive.  that we have lost our freedoms.  i would agree with you on all of that.  yet...look at some of the people having the fits about what's being done.  they are the same who thing bigger government is better.  they are the same who say the constitution needs to be a "living document".  they are the same people supporting the drone killing of American citizens.

the difference between east germany and the US is that we have laws that are supposed to supersede the whims of either the leadership or the people.  when you allow  the people, or the government, to act on feelings rather than follow the law, you have nothing. the person who choose to work outside the law as a first choice, is no better than the government that does the same.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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ch.cool
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« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2013, 02:10:53 PM »

Just saying,  East Germany had laws too. There was no law that you can not talk about political issues or that you can not travel or move wherever you want.
The  problem is , people here did bend the law in the first place and now they cry that someone is breaking hthe law.
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Moots
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« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2013, 02:17:11 PM »

Quote
Do you really think he would have had a chance to bring this problem to superior officials and they would jump on it to change it.

if he had tried to go to someone like Rand Paul and had not gotten anywhere, I would feel different.  i actually agree with him that this is stuff we need to know.  what bothers me is that we are willing to accept his leaking because we like what he leaked, but the next person who leaks something that gets people killed, will be vilified....maybe....they are still trying to make a hero out of Manning and i think he should be executed.

we may not like the laws that we have.  we have mechanisms for changing them.  we have mechanisms for changing leadership.  you can make the case that we have to many laws.  that the laws are oppressive.  that we have lost our freedoms.  i would agree with you on all of that.  yet...look at some of the people having the fits about what's being done.  they are the same who thing bigger government is better.  they are the same who say the constitution needs to be a "living document".  they are the same people supporting the drone killing of American citizens.

the difference between east germany and the US is that we have laws that are supposed to supersede the whims of either the leadership or the people.  when you allow  the people, or the government, to act on feelings rather than follow the law, you have nothing. the person who choose to work outside the law as a first choice, is no better than the government that does the same.


The two highlighted points above from Kathy completely sums up this entire situation...

Yet the "All government is EVIL and BAD" crowd is too busy wanting to build a statue to honor their new hero Snowden to listen or address these basic points.

I'm as anti Big government as the next "reasonable" guy...And I understand the dangers of thinking "it can't happen here", because, it certainly could....But comparing the present United States with East Germany of old is a bit of a stretch! 
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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ch.cool
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« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2013, 09:02:26 PM »

Not comparing,  but some fear is coming up. I lived in a commie-dictatorship country  and there is the patriot act and all it's little exemptions of democracy and laws. Should there be not an outcry. Did not many dictatorships started with a little change here and there and the people nodded their heads until they figured it is to late/dangerous to change? Perhaps I'm not thinking it through,  but my past made me sensitve.
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kathyp
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« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2013, 09:26:44 PM »

your past should make you sensitive and you are right to point out what you see. 

the patriot act itself was not as big a deal as many wanted to make it.  very little was new in it.  it was done legislatively so it was subject not only to oversight, but to court challenge.  it also had a sunset provision and provisions for periodic review.

far worse than the patriot act was the creation of homeland security.  congress did that over the objections of the WH. 
if the patriot act did one thing that was potentially dangerous, it was that it gave some latitude to law enforcement in when and how to get warrants, and in the ability to keep things secret.
those two things, in the wrong hands, lead to what we now may have.  if you read the act itself, you can see the merit in these provision. when you look at the application in the wrong hands, you can see the disaster.  but isn't that true of all laws? 

the problem is not with laws usually.  it is with those tasked with enforcing and interpreting those laws.  we control who we have put in office...or, we did....we might not anymore.

if you want to fix this, you strip the feds of all powers and duties not in the constitution.  that won't happen.  to many people want to much stuff.  they'd rather be spied on than lose the goodies.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2013, 09:28:29 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/10/us/citing-affair-petraeus-resigns-as-cia-director.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

we might need to rethink a lot of what has happened in the last couple of years.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
edward
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« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2013, 11:06:53 PM »

He just confermed something that every body knew and suspected and opened the curtains and showed the government with there pants down around there ankles  embarassed

Gives you Flashbacks to east germany, stasi and George Orwell  Sad


mvh Edward  tongue
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Moots
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« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2013, 11:14:53 PM »


if you want to fix this, you strip the feds of all powers and duties not in the constitution.  that won't happen.  to many people want to much stuff.  they'd rather be spied on than lose the goodies.

As they say....."Freedom or Free Stuff, You can't have them both!"

Unfortunately, based on the results of the last Presidential election it looks like we're now a nation with more takers than makers....Looking like "free stuff" has won out!  Sad
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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