Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
September 19, 2014, 05:07:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: hero? maybe, but.....  (Read 12743 times)
Moots
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1462


Location: Gonzales LA (Southeastern Louisiana)


« Reply #160 on: October 29, 2013, 08:01:54 PM »

So...You're rationalized Snowden's breaking the law to be "gutsy" and admirable.

Much like the Government is rationalizing that what the NSA is doing is for the greater good. It's either against the law, or it's not. Seems like both you and BO want to pick and choose which laws need to be followed.

I'm afraid on this one we'll just have to agree to disagree.   Smiley
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 08:16:52 PM by Moots » Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
GSF
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1650

Location: Central AL (nw corner of Elmore County)


« Reply #161 on: October 29, 2013, 08:59:23 PM »

Hey Moots, Brother I can feel ya. As for me the court is still out.

A recommended reading by Frederic Bastiat; "The Law" I don't know what year it was written but he died in 1850. Can't say it's a page turner.

A quick summary of the book. Laws are necessary. However there comes a time in a society when the powerful create laws, or enough laws they can pretty much do what they want with the public. A normal person can't go through the day without breaking a law, and a lot of the times the laws are felonies.(from the book)

I consider the NSA an arm of Hitler. But then I don't want those who are honestly trying to help us to have their hands tied. So there goes freedom, I just don't know what to think or say sometimes. I created and hosted a prepper's group for a 3 or 4 county area a few years back - before the natgeo show. The internal thinking back then was we were being watched and monitored. I thought it crazy, but now I look back and tend to wonder. Why would they monitor a bunch of out of the way law abiding citizens? To take our food, fuel, and other supplies. Don't believe that? google or bing the recent (4 or 5 years ago) Defense Authorization Act/Executive Order. Under marshal law they have the "legal" right to take everything I have including forcing me into servitude (slave). Under this act it is pretty easy to have marshal law declared. It can be done at the mayoral level.

Why mention all that? Because it's legal. When Hitler, Sadam Hussein, Idi Amin, or folks like them kill all those folks it was legal - according to their "law".
Logged

"Life is hard, It's even harder when you're stupid."

John Wayne
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15143


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2013, 09:30:12 PM »


GSF i don't disagree with you or with buzzbee.  if someone feels so strongly that something must be told they need to tell it, but then, they need to face the consequences.

i don't know how far back you were following this thread, but my position was that if snowden had followed the whistle blower laws and it had not worked, i would have had more inclination to support him.  instead, he went to an unfriendly press (ever read the guardian?) and spewed state secrets. 

the issue for me is not whether we should know what our government is doing to us.  we should...for the most part.  however, we can't have everyone who handles sensitive material deciding on their own what should be known and what should not.  my family is a military family.  that's the kind of stuff that gets us killed. what Manning did got people killed. 

if you feel so strongly that you must do something for the greater good, don't run off to russia.  stand up like a man and take your punishment.  be satisfied that you did the right thing....if that was really your motivation.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1462


Location: Gonzales LA (Southeastern Louisiana)


« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2013, 09:58:15 PM »

GSF,
Appreciate the response and the bigger point you are making.  Thanks for the book recommendation, but if you're admitting up front that it's not a page turner, I'm afraid you've lost me.  Sad

While I'm as anti big government as they come, and couldn't be more disappointed with the general direction this country is headed, let's keep things in prospective, I think we're quite a ways from the actions of Hitler, Sadam Hussein, and Idi Amin.  While I appreciate the fact that a lot of folks feel violated that their emails have landed in some government controlled database, I hardly think it's comparable to executing or gassing thousands or tens of thousands of your own citizens and dumping them in a mass grave.

Let's be honest, absolute freedom is absolute anarchy!  In any civilized society certain freedoms are sacrificed for the sake of maintaining safety and order.

While I'm not thrilled with the data mining, I'd tend to agree with kathy in that I never had that great of an expectation of privacy.  Who on September 12, 2001 would have thought this country could go 12+ years without another significant attack on our soil?  If the government scanning my emails is what has made that possible, that's a trade I'm willing to make.

That stance may not sound as noble, righteous, and principled as some on here, but for me it's a simple truth and a no brain-er. For those that would argue that point, I'd ask....How many 911 style attacks are you willing to tolerate and absorb to know your emails and text messages are secure from the government?  One every 5 years?  Annually?  Monthly??? Put a number on it!  What body count are you willing to tolerate to shut down the NSA?  

While admittedly, our government is FAR FROM PERFECT in how it handles it's business, I find it amazing that folks think that the Manning's and Snowden's of the world, basically, any nerd with a thumb drive, is in a better position and has a right to make the decisions unilaterally on what the public should and shouldn't know.  Am I the only one that sees the irony in the fact that Snowden is suppose to be some principled freedom fighter but yet runs to hide in China and Russia....To steal a line from Monday night football, C'Mon MAN!!!
Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6053

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2013, 10:09:30 PM »

I think the members of the Boston tea party broke the law, too. THANKFULLY
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Moots
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1462


Location: Gonzales LA (Southeastern Louisiana)


« Reply #165 on: October 29, 2013, 10:21:16 PM »

I think the members of the Boston tea party broke the law, too. THANKFULLY

Did they run to China or Russia to hide afterwards?
Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
GSF
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1650

Location: Central AL (nw corner of Elmore County)


« Reply #166 on: October 30, 2013, 06:26:09 AM »

Kathy, good point about the whistle blower law. (I'm retired military)

Moots, also good points. I'm just thinking out loud sometimes. Without what's been going on I also believe there would have been more attacks. Something that still bothers me (going back to the book I mentioned) is I know a lot of folks who has a lot of ammo. How much ammo would label me or someone else a domestic terrorist? 500, 1000, 2000 or more rounds. A simple secret or open law could put someone like that in prison with no release date without them actually being a criminal. Government is evil, but a necessary evil. Even the Indians had a form of government with rules and laws.

Iddee; If I'm not mistaken only 17% of the country initially supported the revolutionary war. (It was against the law) grin
Logged

"Life is hard, It's even harder when you're stupid."

John Wayne
buzzbee
Ken
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5443


Location: North Central PA


WWW
« Reply #167 on: October 30, 2013, 07:37:55 AM »

Well, once the gun registry is in place and the databases are merged we'll see who has the right outlook on this mess.
And do you really think if Snowden went through proper channels in the whistleblower program and nothing was done that he would not have been silenced in one way or another? Look at the witnesses for what happened in Benghazi, SILENCED. It's an awful sound. The sound of silence yells a big story in itself. And Moots, even thinking of comparing me with  BO is a low I wouldn't go to. You seem as if you may seem to support lawlessness in the NSA if something is to be gained, depending on who the gain is for.
  Another thing to tie in, we seem to be giving monetary support to the same groups we claim to be at war with.Remember those jets that were to head to Egypt while under control of the Muslim brotherhood? It would have happened had that place not exploded. And I think the shipment is delayed,not cancelled.  Did we already forget Fast and Furious? Do we forget they don't want to secure our border? They want to put all citizens in a registry of one sort or another but not ask the same of illegal immigrants? Start putting the pieces together, it's not a hard fit.
 You need to start thinking of the country that will be here for your children. It is already a far cry from what we grew up with.
Logged
edward
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1195


Location: BÖNAN SWEDEN

FEED ME HONEY or I`ll smash your screen !


« Reply #168 on: October 30, 2013, 07:43:34 AM »

To summarize, you're upset that the NSA is breaking the law, but not upset that Snowden broke the law...You think the NSA should be held accountable, but not Snowden!

 applause hahaha a pot and a kettel come to mind  grin applause
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15143


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #169 on: October 30, 2013, 10:56:22 AM »

buzzbee, those are all legitimate points.  but...

one of the things that gave us an advantage during ww2 was cracking the German code.  what if some twerp had decided that it was more important to let the world know we had that info? 
one of the things that led to the "cold war" was the soviets getting nukes.  why did they get nukes when they did?  because we had people in this country who thought it was fair for them to have that info.

Manning didn't even know what he was spewing and we'll probably never be able to calculate the death and damage he has done.

Snowden:  you like knowing some of what he put out, so he gets a pass.  this must be the way we will determine how laws are kept?  we will take a poll and if enough people like the fact that the law was broken, we'll just ignore the fact that it was broken. 

now think about what else he did.  he released info on our efforts against china and the way they spy on us.  his info allowed them to harden sites and be on guard against some of our procedures.  he also spewed info on specific measures we take not only in spying but in protecting from spying.  because of the release of methods he has made some of our hacking efforts, like those against iran, more difficult.

so you got some info that someone is vacuuming up your cell and email meta-data.   something you probably already knew.  in exchange, state secrets and spy craft were shared with friends and enemies alike...and we still don't know all that he stole.

i get that you don't trust your government.  who does?  who should?  would you rather put your faith in the good will of a kid now residing in russia?
 


Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1462


Location: Gonzales LA (Southeastern Louisiana)


« Reply #170 on: October 30, 2013, 12:15:13 PM »

buzzbee, those are all legitimate points.  but...

...i get that you don't trust your government.  who does?  who should?  would you rather put your faith in the good will of a kid now residing in russia?
 

EXACTLY!  It amazes me that everyone wants to somehow equate my disapproval with what Snowden did as approval for the governments actions.  They're independant events, each can, and should stand and be judged on it's own merits.

While I share many if not all the same concerns that have been expressed on here regarding the actions of the NSA...Like it or not, the fact remains that for our country to properly defend itself, secrets must be kept.   To somehow think that an appropriate way to balance that power and benefit this country in the future is to give every 20 something year old nerd with a thumb drive the impression that stealing and revealing as many of our nations secret as possible and fleeing to China and/or Russia is somehow an admirable act that will bestow hero status upon them, totally baffles me!
Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
hjon71
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 722

Location: SW Tenn


« Reply #171 on: November 01, 2013, 10:14:32 PM »

I can't help but wonder if Snowden is in Russia to avoid a trial or assassination. Why go to an outside source instead of our own media? Do you believe any of the information would have been allowed to see the light of day? Maybe the parts that make him suspect but definitely not the stuff that brings the ABC gangs into question.

Quote
one of the things that gave us an advantage during ww2 was cracking the German code. what if some twerp had decided that it was more important to let the world know we had that info? one of the things that led to the "cold war" was the soviets getting nukes. why did they get nukes when they did? because we had people in this country who thought it was fair for them to have that info.

To compare Snowden to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg is quite a stretch IMO. The first made some higher ups look bad the second are traitors.

I'm with BuzzBee on this one.
Logged
Moots
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1462


Location: Gonzales LA (Southeastern Louisiana)


« Reply #172 on: November 01, 2013, 10:48:17 PM »


To compare Snowden to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg is quite a stretch IMO. The first made some higher ups look bad the second are traitors.

I'm with BuzzBee on this one.


I'm with Merriam-Webster on this one.  grin

I think Snowden meets the Definition of Traitor!
Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
hjon71
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 722

Location: SW Tenn


« Reply #173 on: November 01, 2013, 11:44:27 PM »

Does anyone believe he would be allowed to testify in a court before a jury for his crime. Yes he committed a crime. I think his intention was not to harm us but to expose the depth of the spying on our own citizens and allies. I can understand why he would need to seek asylum.
Logged
Moots
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1462


Location: Gonzales LA (Southeastern Louisiana)


« Reply #174 on: November 02, 2013, 08:26:15 AM »

Does anyone believe he would be allowed to testify in a court before a jury for his crime. Yes he committed a crime. I think his intention was not to harm us but to expose the depth of the spying on our own citizens and allies. I can understand why he would need to seek asylum.

hjon,
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

People are held accountable for their actions...not their intentions.  I have no doubt that the guy that drinks too much and gets in a vehicle and ends up killing someone, had no INTENTION to harm anyone.  But, his actions are irresponsible and he's held accountable for his actions.

Sometimes even well intentioned actions have unintended consequences.  All the more reason why you should't be supporting the concept that anytime an individual has access to sensitive government information that maybe they think the public needs to know...that they should just expose the information and be regarded as a "hero" for doing so.
There's way too many pieces to the puzzle for an individual to know the ripple effect of releasing sensitive information.  HELL Manning and Snowden didn't even know what some of the data they stole contained...how can they have reasonably intended for it not to harm anyone?
Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
buzzbee
Ken
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5443


Location: North Central PA


WWW
« Reply #175 on: November 02, 2013, 08:43:42 AM »

Well, lets see what these people we are being warned about are up to this week. The abuse of power is one of the things that come with all this data taken in secret and saved. This may not have been any secrets about what she had, but the abuse of power is where one should really be concerned when allowing the NSA to run foot loose and fancy free. Heads in the sand will get something driven in from behind, if you catch my drift.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/28/federal-agents-pre-dawn-raid-on-reporter-home-raises-questions/

We have an ugly monster that needs it's head removed.
Logged
hjon71
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 722

Location: SW Tenn


« Reply #176 on: November 02, 2013, 09:36:15 AM »

I will ask again.
Does anyone believe Snowden would be allowed to testify in open court with a jury?
Do you think he is dodging arrest or assassination?
Logged
buzzbee
Ken
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5443


Location: North Central PA


WWW
« Reply #177 on: November 02, 2013, 09:40:14 AM »

Hjon, you may well be correct on both points. I think the way this administration does things, he would likely have been killed via a drone strike if he went anywhere other than China or Russia. Judge jury and executioners of American citizens. They have done it already in the Middle East. They killed American citizens without renouncing their citizenship due to the urgent nature of removing them.
Logged
hjon71
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 722

Location: SW Tenn


« Reply #178 on: November 02, 2013, 11:00:42 AM »

Hjon, you may well be correct on both points. I think the way this administrationdoes things, he would likely have been killed via a drone strike if he went anywhere other than China or Russia. Judge jury and executioners of American citizens. They have done it already in the Middle East. They killed American citizens without renouncing their citizenship due to the urgent nature of removing them.

Emphasis added*
This is generally where I part with the Left/Right thinkers. I believe the result would be the same regardless of administration party affiliation..

I thought you would agree BuzzBee. It is all the folks who claim he ran because of the avoidance of punishment that I would like to hear from.

Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15143


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #179 on: November 02, 2013, 11:44:29 AM »

Quote
Does anyone believe Snowden would be allowed to testify in open court with a jury?

he could have contacted someone like Rand Paul by way of attorney...as the Benghazi people have, and at least tried to do this the right way.  do you think that those who testify against this admin about other things are in less danger?

i agree that all admins do "stuff".  this one has shown a particular disdain for the constitution, and for law in general.  it's an open disregard for the law and it should be a lot more disturbing to people than it seems to be....and that would include many republicans who seem to think that droning american citizens is just fine.

IF Snowden had tried to do this the right way, i'd have a lot more sympathy for him.  he went to a far left foreign news agency then ran to communist countries.  he gets no pass from me. Moots is right.  intent can't be the way we judge law breaking.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.24 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page September 01, 2014, 08:19:36 AM