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Author Topic: and the trashing of my hives begins again  (Read 5103 times)
Billybee
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« on: June 05, 2013, 09:38:06 PM »

If you look at all of my previous posts I pretty much have the same problem at this point and always get the same answers including cut out the crooked stuff and rubber band back in what you can. None of which work. So here I go again with the same story except I tried something else.

I have 2 10 frame deeps with a package of bees in each. They have a perfect starter strip and both had a half frame of drawn comb in a corner of each box. Eveything was going perfect as you can see in the picture posted until they started storing honey. When they start building the comb to fill with stores and cap it is ALWAYS thicker than the rest of the comb and is wider than the space the hive allows them from frame to frame. Even when I first started beekeeping  WITH foundation this was an issue. No need to suggest putting that  in to have the same results! Plus the point of foundationless is? About 7 frames in each hive are at least 1/3 filled. Most 3/4. 1 frame in a hive even had side by side comb on the same frame. So as they built out the honey into the space of the next frame it forced them over when they started on comb there. and the chain reaction goes on.

Anyway heres what I have done. I went into both hives today, took out any empty frames or ones with comb starting but nothing in, butchered off anything that was sticking out into the next frame over from it, cut off the one side by side comb, pushed some comb back into the frame that was curving outward towards the next frame or attached already, rubber banded some into an empty and had an over all stress session for the bees and myself. Then I put follower boards next to as many as I could (staggering)to try and keep them from building to wide. These were placed 3/8 apart from each frame. The idea is if they build to far out they hit a wall, stop and be forced to draw out the rest of the frame they are in before moving on. I did see my queens in both but, I do not know if they are safe upon pushing everything together. I hacked some brood and made an overall mess of the place. I go out to the farm they are on no later than every 4th day to at least look so its not like I am leaving for long stretches and coming back to a mess.

So when I go back sunday or Monday whats gonna be going on? Why is this always an issue? If they survive this I am most likely putting 9 frame spacers in the rest of my equiptment to try and resolve this. Do any of you foudationless "experts" have any video pointing the way for us hacks who just cant get 1 box full of comb that does not have to be destroyed to get it straight?I think I covered every detail of my destruction of what started out as beautiful hives.

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Can somebody tell me where I can find a foundation tree?
kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 10:09:20 PM »

a couple of things.

you are not going to solve it with 9 frames in a brood box.  you will make it worse.

you may be expecting perfection and you will not get it.

so what if some stuff sticks together?  get a long knife, i like a bread knife, and cut those bits apart when they get fat.  most of the time this is not to much of an issue in the brood box IF you have your frames tights.  they may stick bits together, but so what?  cut it, inspect, they'll clean up and fix it.

these are critter.  they do what they do.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Billybee
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 08:27:00 AM »

Not expecting perfection. Just wanna be able to remove frames without trashing everything when needed. and for that matter would love to see something work that those highly respected in the field and on this forum advise. It never does for me! Im headed back to those hives tomorrow to see how much damage done. If they are a mess I am pullin out the follower boards, finishing building the equptment I have started and selling everything.
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Can somebody tell me where I can find a foundation tree?
kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 09:18:22 AM »

well, beekeeping is not for everyone.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
don2
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 10:41:45 AM »

"Honey" comb is naturally deeper/thicker than "brood" comb. If you extract leave the 10 spacing till you get frames drawn out. For foundation less I understand it is best ti start starter frames between full frames.Still use the 10 frame spacing. the main purpose for 9 frame set up is to get fatter combs for easier uncapping and you still get as much honey from 9 frames as you do from 10. If you are not extracting it might be best to stay with 10 frames all the way.  :)d2
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beeman2009
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 03:32:40 PM »

Just a thought. Have you tried using wider frames for your honey storage? With a TBH you have to use wider honey bars or they will do just you have going on. I assume these are langs, so a wider frame is not possible unless you make it yourself but you could use some spacers to give them more space between honey frames. I have also found that shaving my frames down to 1 1/4" wide really helps to keep the brood nest tight, increases population as well. Hope this helps. Remember bees are just insects, but if your patient with them you might be able to coax them to do what you want.  bee
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All things may be lawful, but not all things are advantageous.

Beeman2009
Jim 134
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 10:09:47 AM »

Billybee.........
I would like to know
Why are you so dead set on going foundation less Huh
and putting 9 frames in a 10 frame box Huh  
Have the bees beaten up enough already Huh
Did you sell all your bee equipment Huh


                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
duryeafarms
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 11:37:23 AM »

Beeman, how are you directing your bees to use wider bars for honeycomb? I have a TBH and the honey sections of the brood comb are also being built much wider.
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beeman2009
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 05:23:09 PM »

duryeafarms,

How wide are your bars? I use 1 1/4 for brood & 1 1/2 for honey. What I look for is the position of the comb on the bar. If it's off center then I would add a spacer or wider bar.
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All things may be lawful, but not all things are advantageous.

Beeman2009
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 05:30:49 PM »

I give them a little bit of leeway.
If I have to pull out two frames at once because they're stuck together - and it seems they aren't trying to connect them all - I leave them alone. (I'm going to harvest all of it within a cell or two of the top anyway.)
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be happy and make others happy.
Jim 134
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 06:08:37 PM »

Beeman, how are you directing your bees to use wider bars for honeycomb? I have a TBH and the honey sections of the brood comb are also being built much wider.

   I wonder why this thread went to TBH Huh stay on topic wasn't this thread about naturally drawn comb  rolleyes



                            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
don2
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2013, 10:38:33 PM »

If you are using a 10 frame Lang hive you may have to start with a full frame/foundation alternated with just the top bar, or an empty frame. At any rate start with 10 frames regardless of how you stagger them. Always keep 10 frames in the brood section. When you get to the honey section, start with 10 frames till the comb is drawn out. Then and only then do you run 9 frames, only if you want thicker combs.If you are going to go foundation-less so you can harvest comb and all, then I would go with 10 frames,  yhen you don't have to worry about getting excess space between any two frames. JMO  Smiley d2
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duryeafarms
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2013, 10:39:08 PM »

Beeman, all my bars are 1 3/8. I can try adding a spacer. At this point the only part they are fattening is the honey stores on the ends of a couple of brood combs. We've gotten some rain recently so the flow is fairly strong. It It will be interesting to see what happens with the honey comb. Last time I looked they had 2 bars going.
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Billybee
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 08:47:47 AM »

Dead set on foundationless because the same mess occurs with foundation for me and I have not had an SHB problem since I stopped using it combined with some other things. The many other reasons I cant type out before I get to work.

As far as beekeeping isnt for everyone comment. Correct but, when you get information from the so called experts about something you would like to think 1 of them is giving you something credible to work with. I have gotten some credible advice at times. As far as uniform techniques go beekeeping has got to be one of the most all over the place activities I have ever seen with nobody leading the charge on info. The closest guy in that charge is MB from what I can tell and I have heard people trash him.

On to the topic at hand.

I did go back to the hives Sunday. I saw  comb being doctored up and built no wider than the space allowed due to having put those follower boards in (not claiming mission accomplished yet).

I saw one of the queens in one of the hives and no queen cells started in either so I assume I didnt damage the other. My third hive is still building perfect comb in its first deep and I did the same thin with the rest of the space left in that one to try and keep it that way. All boxes should fill out by the end of the month then I will be going with all mediums for easier fixing when needed.

Update and pics in 4 days or so
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Can somebody tell me where I can find a foundation tree?
Michael Bush
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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 10:11:39 AM »

Spacing of combs seems to be confusing for people.  Brood is a fixed space.  A brood cell is a given depth (about 1/2" which makes a comb that is about 1") and, if the bees have their say, a given diameter of about 4.7mm to 5.1mm.  Those combs are, if the bees have their say, about 1 1/4" (32mm) on center.  If you space them wider, you'll have problems.  How much depends on how much wider.  You can usually get by with 1 3/8" (35mm or the standard width of a Hoffman frame).  But with foundationless they may cheat that a bit on each successive comb until they are getting off.  Making it wider than 1 3/8" in the brood nest is just asking for problems.  On the other hand honey is not a fixed depth.  I can vary from 1/4" to 2" or even more in depth.  Typically if you give them only 1 1/4" with comb guides, they will probably ignore the guides and make the combs wider for honey.  Typically if I give them 1 1/2" they are willing to accept that, but sometimes they will cheat them even bigger.   1 1/2" on center is the typical spacing of 9 frames in a ten frame super.

One of the things get gets bees off, is when the beekeeper decides to evenly space the combs in the brood box.  This increases the standard Hoffman spacing if 1 3/8" to closer to 1 1/2".  Even worse if they put 9 frames in a ten frame brood box.

The most important thing to understand about foundationless is that bees build parallel combs.  So one bad comb leads to another bad comb.  One good comb also leads to another good comb.  So if you can get a good straight comb you have a better start that is more likely to result in more good combs.  Two straight brood combs are a gift.  You can now put an empty frame between those and get another perfect comb.  All beekeeping is an art.  You have to look at the situation and adjust.  It is also a science, in that understanding what the bees will build for a particular circumstance will help you make your decisions.  Understanding that they build parallel combs, understanding that brood combs are a fixed thickness and that honey comb varies and that honey is typically thicker than brood are facts that will assist you in making your judgments.
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Michael Bush
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »

Quote
As far as beekeeping isnt for everyone comment. Correct but, when you get information from the so called experts about something you would like to think 1 of them is giving you something credible to work with. I have gotten some credible advice at times

people share with you, what has worked for them.  you have to take from that, what will work for you.  finding what works for you, takes some time and patience...and experimenting.
if you can't handle that, don't ask.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jim 134
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 09:34:01 PM »

Dead set on foundationless because the same mess occurs with foundation for me and I have not had an SHB problem since I stopped using it combined with some other things. The many other reasons I cant type out before I get to work.

As far as beekeeping isnt for everyone comment. Correct but, when you get information from the so called experts about something you would like to think 1 of them is giving you something credible to work with. I have gotten some credible advice at times. As far as uniform techniques go beekeeping has got to be one of the most all over the place activities I have ever seen with nobody leading the charge on info. The closest guy in that charge is MB from what I can tell and I have heard people trash him.

On to the topic at hand.

I did go back to the hives Sunday. I saw  comb being doctored up and built no wider than the space allowed due to having put those follower boards in (not claiming mission accomplished yet).

I saw one of the queens in one of the hives and no queen cells started in either so I assume I didnt damage the other. My third hive is still building perfect comb in its first deep and I did the same thin with the rest of the space left in that one to try and keep it that way. All boxes should fill out by the end of the month then I will be going with all mediums for easier fixing when needed.

Update and pics in 4 days or so

Do you really believe that foundationless keeps away SHB Huh  
I would like to hear more about this.

  I am not a so called expert I just have 50+ years experience with beekeeping and I can tell you what worked for me and another beekeepers in my area.

Maybe you can learn a little bit about spacing of brood and honey by reading  Michael Bush (Reply #14 in this thread)

                         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

    
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
don2
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 09:49:31 PM »

  Bees will naturally build wider/thicker comb for honey storage. If you use 10 frames in a honey super  There will be some rubbing together when you take the frames out. To minimize this you always remove the outer frame first, that gives you room to move the next frame over a little for the clearance you need to prevent them from rubbing the next fram.  You should not have a big problem with getting straight comb if you alter the foundation-less frame with frames with foundation. Once you get the (foundation) of what you want started, you should not have much trouble. On the other hand if you are trying to change the configuration of a fixed system from the get go, let me know how it turns out. Smiley  d2
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Jim 134
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 03:12:02 AM »

IMHO you'd need to use 10 frames in a 10 frame boxer for brood or honey the first time around the combs need to be drawn out before you can go to 9 frames in the honey supers in my little bit of experience it will not work other wise you will get a mess of cross combs ..



                                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
beeman2009
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 01:56:08 PM »


[/quote]

   I wonder why this thread went to TBH Huh stay on topic wasn't this thread about naturally drawn comb  rolleyes



                            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
[/quote]

Jim, you are absolutely right. My bad, I really missed that point. Thanks for pointing this out & thanks for your input and sharing your experience with those of us less experienced.   pink elephant
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All things may be lawful, but not all things are advantageous.

Beeman2009
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