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Author Topic: Do bees ever store pollen patty in cells?  (Read 1821 times)
Bee Curious
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« on: June 03, 2013, 04:22:06 PM »

New beekeeper here.  Package arrived 23 days ago.  I'm running 8 frame all mediums, with foundationless frames.  Other than building some wonky comb, the girls seem to be doing well.  Due to going foundationless AND horrible weather (unusually hot or unusually cold, and lots of rainy days) I've been feeding 1:1 syrup and a pollen substitute patty, which the bees have been enthusiastically eating.  I was looking at my comb repairs today and noticed that some cells contain something the exact same color as the pollen substitute patty. Is it possible that they are storing the patty, like they are also storing pollen and syrup?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Just5398
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 06:15:22 PM »

I'm not familiar with pollen patty color but if it's orange(ish) it could be bee bread.
(Im new too and still learning)
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Sally
Bee Curious
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 06:43:20 PM »

Pollen substitute patty is the color of peanut butter.
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BAH
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 06:53:45 PM »

I would lean towards yes. Because after the bee gets back to the hive, it removes the pollen from the pollen baskets and stores the pollen in the honeycomb. The pollen is mixed with honey or nectar and stored as food, called bee bread. Larvae are feed the bee bread for three to five days before becoming pupae. So I believe they are storing it and making bee bread.
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beek1951
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 08:41:30 PM »

Bees store all pollen in cells because it has to be mixed with honey for them to take it.
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cklspencer
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 11:51:30 PM »

No they don't store it, they either use it or remove it from the hive.
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BAH
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 07:36:18 AM »

No they don't store it, they either use it or remove it from the hive.


Collecting nectar for the hive (days 12 to 18)
Young worker bees also take nectar from foraging field bees that are returning to the hive. The house bees deposit this nectar into cells earmarked for this purpose. The workers similarly take pollen from returning field bees and pack the pollen into cells. Both the ripened honey and the pollen are food for the colony.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-the-role-of-the-worker-bee-in-a-hive.html

Pollen packing [edit]
Pollen brought into the hive for feeding the brood is also stored. It must be packed firmly into comb cells and mixed with a small amount of honey so that it will not spoil. Unlike honey, which does not support bacterial life, stored pollen will become rancid without proper care. It has to be kept in honey cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee

Pollen is a brightly colored powder that bees collect from male plants and spread to female plants. This process is called pollination and allows plants to reproduce. But pollination is only a side effect of bees collecting pollen. Bees collect pollen to take to their hive to use as food, and there are a couple of ways that bees store pollen for their future use.

Read more: How Do Bees Store Pollen? | eHow http://www.ehow.com/about_6311010_do-bees-store-pollen_.html#ixzz2VFKtTwXt

There is a lot more but here is just a few. Not saying you are wrong, but would love to read your source! Never heard of bees throwing out a protein source not to mention un-effectively working. Please post your source so I may learn from you as well.
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BAH
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 07:59:32 AM »

Researched the topic, about throwing out pollen, on just a few sites.. What I came up with is...
Michael Bush, of Bush farms, which is also a member here. "I think it's more likely that it is contaminated with fungicide and it won't ferment. It's supposed to ferment to make bee bread."
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?274608-Bees-throwing-pollen-out-of-the-hive
Thanks Michael Bush!
But still haven't seen anything about throwing away pollen, just to throw it away. If you have this happening, may wanna check what you are feeding them. Thanks for that push, didn't realize that this could happen. But would still like to know your source, we learn something new everyday and my day just started 2 hours ago! Smiley
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 09:29:26 AM »

They very well might haul pollen or pollen substitute out if it falls to the floor as they view things on the floor as trash...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
gjd
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 12:43:14 PM »

Look up pollen colors on wikipedia, find some food dye that will color the patty some color not found in nature, put a dyed patty in the hive, and see what happens after the patty starts shrinking. If you find bee bread that color, you've found the answer.   If you don't, you have further evidence that they don't store it in bee bread.   You still don't know whether they just discarded it, though.  You'll need to dissect a few to confirm they've eaten it, and maybe fiddle with the marker so it'll show up in the gut if the dye doesn't work.  Maybe radioactive or fluorescent markers.   Or just find a biology student looking for a senior or master's thesis.
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cklspencer
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 01:37:31 PM »

Quote
There is a lot more but here is just a few. Not saying you are wrong, but would love to read your source! Never heard of bees throwing out a protein source not to mention un-effectively working. Please post your source so I may learn from you as well.

Not wrong! we are talking about pollen patties, not natural pollen brought into the hive by bees. Yes bees will pack natural pollen away into cells to feed young.

Pollen patties on the other hand bees do not store. They either feed it to young or remove it from the hives, but they do not and will not store it. A few years ago while visiting with Randy Oliver this was discussed. He was working on a study where they treated the pollen patty with a fluorescing dye. The pollen patty never showed up in the comb. There has also been other studies done on this but I'm not going to look them up for you just to make a point. The data you supplied is about natural pollen and not pollen patties.
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Better.to.Bee.than.not
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 02:28:05 PM »

They very well might haul pollen or pollen substitute out if it falls to the floor as they view things on the floor as trash...


what? they don't have the 5 second rule?!
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 03:44:42 PM »

.
I have feeded pollen patty to bees 23 years, and can say that they do not store it.
I have not seen it ion combs and beed do not carry crumbs in their jaws.
Bees eate so little pieces to mouth, that I cannot even see it. If the patty stuff is coarse, bee drop crumbs onto  floor like Michael said, or mostly, they stop eating it. 
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Bee Curious
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 04:59:33 PM »

Thank you, all, for this discussion.  I liked the fluorescent dye idea.  I guess they are not storing pollen patty, but are storing a similar colored pollen.  I am a brand new beek, so I already have so much to look for/at when I open the hive, and I don't want to wear out my welcome with the girls.  So far, they have been very patient with my inspections, and repairing their wonky comb.  What I should do is film my inspections, with a video cam on a tripod, so I can go back and look at some of the details I miss because I'm nervous and trying to not take too long.
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BAH
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 05:09:55 PM »

 huh This is a forum where people can learn from one another. Wasn't trying to attack you was asking for general info in order to learn. I do feel however you are being disrespectful, because this is not a post based on my opinions but the facts! That is why I put links up, to show where I am getting my source. I feel I have much to learn about bees, as this is my first year having them, but have been reading and working with them for years with others. So back to what I said before didn't say anyone was wrong but am looking for sources to better understand the bees! That is the only reason I asked that a source be posted. Not looking  for points, as this wasn't a debate, just a source... So if anyone else has the "time" and a source that I may read please be so kind and drop one, thank you to those that truly understand how to help people learn!

I like to weigh all the facts, not just opinions! My bees... Jerry ...my rules!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 05:34:26 PM by BAH » Logged
BAH
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 06:24:57 PM »

Found this Bee Curious;
Pollen substitutes are best not used in conjunction with supers, as the bees may try to store the pollen substitute material in the supers.
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS%20number%209%20pollen%20substitute.pdf

You be the judge, your bees Wink Still looking online and sent an email to my professor @ UT, in the AG department. I would like to know as well. I have dissected a few to find fungi spores, intestinal scarring and other materials. Bees weren't my thing at time, I was studying soil samples at the time... worms! Lol, I have recently acquired the taste of the bee Smiley and know the lab isn't the only place to learn, hence why I am out getting field experience. I have a theory about CCD and will have to have my hives up and running for awhile so I can correlate my findings to my theory. I will just message you and let you know what I hear back, this thread may not be so willing to accept new science. Thank goodness we do not use stone wheels anymore! lol.  grin
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rdy-b
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 01:01:06 AM »

 there is a process of inoculation with gut microbial and natural pollen that takes place when bees gather
pollen and store it as be bread-the bee bread is undergoing a fermentation process-this insures that no spoilage
takes place in the food source---bees can not inoculate protein substitute thats why they dont store it as surplus
food in the cells--
 they store it in there bodies  in the form of fat and vitilogen-this is the reserves that substitute supply for the bees
that generate hypergernal glands to produce bee milk-they share this form of protein from bee to bee as needed by trophalaxis this is how the protein reserves are managed---natural pollen is a whole other consideration---- Smiley RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 01:57:38 AM »

Found this Bee Curious;
Pollen substitutes are best not used in conjunction with supers, as the bees may try to store the pollen substitute material in the supers.
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS%20number%209%20pollen%20substitute.pdf
 grin


All kind of info stuff is moving around. Like that skimmed milk. It is not proper food to bees. 50% of skimmed milk is lactose, what bees cannot digest- Second, when hives have super, it is summer and they do not eate soya-yeast mixtures.

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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2013, 02:00:10 AM »

The workers similarly take pollen from returning field bees and pack the pollen into cells. Both the ripened honey and the pollen are food for the colony.

No they don't. A pollen collector itself drops the pollen balls into cells. Home bee do not take it from forager.

.
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BAH
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2013, 06:27:19 AM »

The workers similarly take pollen from returning field bees and pack the pollen into cells. Both the ripened honey and the pollen are food for the colony.


No they don't. A pollen collector itself drops the pollen balls into cells. Home bee do not take it from forager.

.


They remove this load from their legs when they return to the hive and the house bees store it in a special part of the comb.
http://www.gpnc.org/honeybee.htm
Duties of the house bee

The duties of a house bee are -

a) cleaning the hive and the comb
b) feeding the brood
c) caring for the queen
d) making orientation flights
e) comb building
f) ventilating the hive
g) packing pollen, water, nectar or honey into the combs
h) executions
i) guard duty
http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0104e/t0104e05.htm

That is their words and that is two links. The second was a good read  Wink It is an official FAO doc.
I have however witnessed both. In large bee colonies and small, even dying colonies. It's was this eye opener that brought me to bees. In the dying hives the house bees are less eager to help and work.
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