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Author Topic: Cutting your own frames  (Read 2346 times)
don2
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« on: June 01, 2013, 05:34:04 PM »

Which saw, band or scroll saw? Every thing else will fall in place. I have a table saw, skill hand saw, two jig saws and 3 chain saws. shocked rolleyes Smiley Wink d2
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divemaster1963
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 07:16:32 PM »

don2

give me a call at the house and we will get together next weekend  and I'll so you everthing you need to build frames and how to do it. its easy peasy. I use two table saws i got from the junk yard  one for cutting the sides out one for dado blade to cut the top bar lips  and a brad nailer from harbor frieght.
I usely make about enough parts for couple hundred at a time then just put them together when i need them.


John Fourseveneight ninethreesix o threeninethree
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capt44
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2013, 01:07:29 AM »

I been messing around trying to build frames but can't get it going right.
The way I'm doing it I can buy them cheaper than the time it's taking me to cut them.
If you've got a way I'd sure like to know.
I have table saws, router table, skill saw, radial saw, miter saws, band saws and such.
I could use a thousand frames right now.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Richard Vardaman (capt44)
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2013, 12:02:23 PM »

I' m with Capt44. It would be nice if you could do some videos covering the whole process. Maybe Youtube? Just a thought. Brian
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Beeman2009
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2013, 01:29:31 PM »

I make end pieces out of 2x6
I make top and bottom bars out of 1x material

End pieces can be "construction" grade material, on west coast this is usually green douglas fir -- I season dry the material.
Top and end bars (the 1 x stock) should be kiln dry -- this is usually pine (and easier to machine).   Green wood will warp and twist, wasting time and effort.

Safety is paramount-- you are working with thin rips-- table saws, radial arm saws eat fingers.  ALWAYS USE PUSH BLOCKS.  ALWAYS USE FEATHER BOARDS TO PREVENT KICK-BACK.   ALWAYS BE SAFE.   This is not like ripping hive material.

Steps:
End frames
1. Surface plane material to 1 3/8  (tool required: shop planer, or careful hand work with power hand plane)
2. Rip to 3/8 strips  (tool required: table saw)
3. Chop strips to 9 1/8 length (or whatever finish dimension intended)  Tool required: Chop Saw with stop block -- or tedious hand work marking and sawing hundreds of pieces).

4. Gang up all the little strips so the are like pages in a book, Clamp the gang of pieces with a bar clamp in the middle.  --- you now have a block of wood 9 1/8 wide and as long as your bar clamp.  Make sure all tops are even and all pieces are level side to side.  This is the critical step-- getting the gang tight together.

5. Dado the top and bottom rabbets using a dado blade on a table saw.   Top dado is 3/4.  Bottom dado is 5/8-- Depth of cut is 1/2"   I have cut both at 5/8, and this works.   To cut the rabbet, careful set up table saw so fence is 11/16 from centerline of dado-- this is crucial and niggling setup.  Have a master block that you save with your set-up.     If you dont have a dado- you can run saw cuts and chisel out the relief, or run a router table (with fence) like a dado (router is not recommended).   Make sure the Tablesaw has a custom fit dado inset on the table, so the depth of cut doesn't go bad.

5.a  To dado, run the ganged pieces through, tight against the fence.

6. I cut the relief on the side of the frames with a belt sander with a coarse grit.  Turn the ganged piece assembly on its side and waste wood with the belt sander to a marked line.

End pieces are finished.  I don't cut wire holes on these, but these could be cut while still ganged.  

It is an option to just cut the end pieces, and use factory made top and bottom.  I have done this to make custom depths for boxes.

Top and bottom bars
1. Top are 1" (exact) rips from 3/4" (nominal 1x) stock.  Look for tight grain
2. Chop strips to 18 15/16" -- Chop saw/ Radial arm saw with stop block on fence makes this quick and accurate.
((I rip before chopping, because I hate ripping thin stock-- still have all 10 fingers)
3. Gang up the chopped to length rips with a bar clamp Rips are on the 1" side (ie 1" material of lots of 3/4 width leaves)
4. Cut the dado for the end bars (3/8 dado, depth 1/8", outer edge of dado 1" from fence.)  Cut both sides, and both ends.
5. Regang the pieces so they are on the 3/4" side.  
6. Cut the dado 3/8" with 1/4 depth of cut to make the ears that hang on the end of hive body
7.  Waste the ends with a belt sander to taper the ears.  You can scribe/mark a line or eye ball this taper.  A shaper could cut the relief, or a bevel pass on the table saw, but the belt sander works fine and fast.

I cut the groove last.  Don't have much experience with the foundationless bevels, but a table saw pass is likely easiest.

The bottom bars are similar construction, with very shallow dados on the end.  My dado are square.  Dadant (not ML) bottom bars have a dovetailed dado- that locks the frame.  Glue and careful machining are fine in home construction.

In my construction you need:
Thickness planer (since you are only wasting 1/8- you might do this with the belt sander)
Table saw with cabinet blade (and safety equipment)
Table saw with 3/4, 5/8 and 3/8 dado blades (highest quality)  with custom insets to match
Chop saw with fence and stop block
Belt sander with coarse grit.
Bar Clamps to accomodate ganged sets of pieces.
Try Blocks (masters) to speed step up of table saw depth of cut and fence location.
( I machine my try blocks from walnut or Corian/Kitchen laminate).  You don't want to be doing set up with a worn out carpenter's rule).

I think making frames to accommodate custom designs is worthwhile, likely a poor use of time for standards.  Making swarm traps could payoff better on a time/value basis.




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divemaster1963
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2013, 10:31:43 PM »

when making the top bars try using a 1x12 that is cut to the proper lenght. then route the ends for the lips then just rip the boards to size. It's safer and faster. John

If I get a chance I well take photos. I don't have a Video camera.

John

when making the side bars I leave the board whole then deado the top and leave the bottom flat then cut sides off with the table saw. I nail the bottom board flush to the side board. less work just as strong. one less step. have had no problems doing it that way.
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Spicypups
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2013, 08:15:58 AM »

I am a first year beekeeper in Virginia.  I am just starting to learn and experiment with foundation-less frames.  I was wondering if thick fishing line would work in a foundation-less frame instead of wire.  I life right next to salt water and just about everything metal rusts eventually - lots of salt in the air I suppose.  Nylon fishing line is cheap - often free when found discarded along the shore, and can be sanitized before putting it onto a frame.  Any thoughts>
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 10:10:05 PM »

To  cut the relief on the sides of the end bars try using a planer/jointer with a stop block.
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 01:23:14 AM »

When you evaluate the time spent versus the cost of unassembled frames is making your own frames worth the effort?
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Ray
divemaster1963
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2013, 10:53:53 PM »

When you evaluate the time spent versus the cost of unassembled frames is making your own frames worth the effort?

It depends on the money you have at your disposal and the materials on hand that is just rotting in the yard. I have access to unlimited green pine and have a chainsaw mill and have limited funds at my wimm to spend. so all that is left is time to do it. and during the off months its a great way to get out of the house and the wifes hair. plus I'm not that into sports on TV.
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RHBee
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2013, 04:54:21 AM »

It depends on the money you have at your disposal and the materials on hand that is just rotting in the yard. I have access to unlimited green pine and have a chainsaw mill and have limited funds at my wimm to spend. so all that is left is time to do it. and during the off months its a great way to get out of the house and the wifes hair. plus I'm not that into sports on TV.

It sounds to me that you spent your money up front for equipment. My wood working equipment consists of two table saws. Limits how creative I can get. Space is another limiter. I'm not that into sports either.

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Later,
Ray
divemaster1963
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2013, 09:20:52 PM »

It depends on the money you have at your disposal and the materials on hand that is just rotting in the yard. I have access to unlimited green pine and have a chainsaw mill and have limited funds at my wimm to spend. so all that is left is time to do it. and during the off months its a great way to get out of the house and the wifes hair. plus I'm not that into sports on TV.

It sounds to me that you spent your money up front for equipment. My wood working equipment consists of two table saws. Limits how creative I can get. Space is another limiter. I'm not that into sports either.



Lets see?  Chain saw made from 3 junked chain saws Price(Free) grin frame for chain saw mill scrap metal from welding shop trash ben (free) grin Trees (free) grin Gas ( 3.33 per gal ) Cry table saw from junk yard (10.00) grin motor from junked fan (5.00 ) grin blades from harbor freight (30.00) Undecided router given to me by friend getting rid of  (free). So maby I have spent 120.00 for all 10000 frames I built this pass two winters.  grin

John
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2013, 10:00:41 PM »

Well then John, I stand corrected.  grin Looks to me like desire trumps dollars. You win. Looks like I need to sharpen my wood working skills.
How about email me or post a picture.  All I got to go by are the frames I've bought. I wouldn't mind alternatives.
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Ray
divemaster1963
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2013, 10:25:58 PM »

I can't remember the post but there are several with vids on how to build the frames. I just used one of the premade ones as a guide. I don't worry about the end angle cuts. and I built mine without the dado on the bottom of the sides. I just nail the bottom straight to the sides. easier and stronger to me when spinning honey. just use the blade to cut the grooves in the tops and bottom boards. I can cut up enough to make 100 frames in a evening then just pull out the staple gun and put them together. you can get to doing about 100 in about 3 hours of easy work. in one night.

John
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flyboy
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 01:01:55 PM »

Making Top and Bottom Bars For Foundationless Frames

How to make end bars


I don't have a dado blade except for an old Sears wobble dado which scares the heck out of me. I just use my tablesaw blade making a cut and then flipping the wood making the second cut then adjusting the fence in a blade width, making the two cuts etc.

I do a lot at once so it is not that complicated. Scrap wood.

Now I am experimenting with skipping the dado cuts on top and bottom and using Kreg pocket holes to fasten the sides to top and bottom.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2014, 09:55:21 AM »

Very interesting. You make it look simple. I will have to try this. I;m new to all this, and trying to save as much money as I can. I've already made the rest of my equipment, so I'll try this next. Thanks for the video.


Phil
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jredburn
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2014, 09:07:58 PM »

I make standard frames for customers that want them.  They are a pain to make and I have a well equipped wood working shop.
For my own use I make my frames out of pallet wood.  I rip a board to 3/8' thick and then again to 1" wide and then cross cut it to 19" long.  I ripe a 1/8 x 1/8" groove longways through the middle on one side for the pop sickle sticks I use as starter strips.  If it does not have any knots in it, it is structurally sound enough to hold brood comb.    This is my top bar.  I use push pins with a 3/8" dia head for spacers.  One on each end and alternate sides.
The bottom bar is 3/8 x 3/4  x 18-1/8.  This has a 1/8" clearance at each end.
The end bars are 1/4 x 1/4 x 9-14" long.
The inside dimension of a box is nominally 18-3/8" and I want bee space around the end frames so the bees have access around the ends of the frames.  That make the length of the bottom bar.
I measure 3/4" in from the end of the top bar and drill a 5/16" dia hole vertically through the to bar.  One on each end.  I measure in 3/8" from the end of t he bottom board and drill a 5/16" hole through the bottom board.  One at each end.
I take the 1/4 x 1/4 end frame,  put a drop of glue on it and drive in the 5/16 holes to make the frame. 
I don't make any recommendations about using this system, just my way of doing things.
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