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Author Topic: Forcing them to fill the super  (Read 3277 times)
beek1951
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 01:32:23 PM »

First of all; the only use I have for queen excluders is for Door Prizes at Bee Club meetings <g>.
I find that putting the super between deeps until it get draw is effective on hives reluctant to
draw the super. Back in the day (thirty years or so ago) we used to call this 'Bottom Supering'
It is how I get new frames drawn in my supers. Then I shuffle them to the top, the brood hatches,
the bees backfill and Voila, honey!
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 02:04:57 PM »

beek1951, that does work well especially for getting those undrawn supers done.  just did it with a couple of mine, although one was by accident.
his thing is that he doesn't want brood in the honey super.  to me, it's no big thing unless you are trying to do cut comb honey.  i just pull the honey frames and leave the brood frames until they hatch out.  i replace the frames i pull with empty so they can keep working.  good flow and pretty soon it's a whole box of honey!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beek1951
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2013, 10:12:36 PM »

Kathy, they will hatch the brood out and the queen will not make it back to lay again before they backfill it with honey.
I haven't used a queen excluder in many years and by the time I pull supers I have never found brood left in them.
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2013, 10:19:39 PM »

don't use them either.  the thing about cut comb  is that you want clean comb.  you don't want what has been laid in and overly tracked over.  that's the only time i can think that i might use one.

the cut comb i do for me, i don't care if the wax is a little dirty  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 12:10:05 AM »

if you are producing specialty honey you don't want old brood comb because the cocoons make the honey darker.  at least that's what i've always been told.  i can't honestly say that i KNOW that it's true, though.  i hate to say it but i run them because it's what we did 30 years ago. i've run hives without them and i'm not convinced that there is a real difference in production.  i've got a hive that i supered with a medium of foundation and put a second brood chamber under the first one and they have been working the honey super and not the brood box.  go figure.
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MagicValley
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 02:32:36 PM »

After 3 days there has been zero bee traffic going in or out of the new holes in the super.  I took the blocking board off the lower entrances.

One day soon I'll remove the honey excluder.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 03:14:42 PM »

>Forcing them to fill the super

If the question in your mind starts “how do I force the bees …” then you are already thinking wrongly. If your question is “how can I help them with what they are trying to do…” you are on your way to becoming a beekeeper.

I would remove the honey excluder...
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Michael Bush
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johng
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 09:09:41 PM »

You can take the excluder off. Let them start working the super then make sure your queen is in the lower box and put the excluder back on. If the queen laid a few eggs in the super they will hatch out in 21 days and the bees will fill it with honey. Problem solved. Once you get some drawn comb you will find they move through the excluder easier. It takes them a while to move through just for foundation.
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 09:40:41 PM »

oh, i don't know.  you can wait and let them swarm again and then take the excluder off. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bailey
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2013, 09:49:37 PM »

Really lost me at the dry ice thing. 
But ok.

Good luck.

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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2013, 10:07:32 PM »

...finski is probably right...
it's your choice, but i don't think it's to complicated.

You just don't see comments like that on here very often. I see your logic but with that many in agreement you may want to rethink your position.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 08:10:07 AM »

>Yes, I know that is the simple answer.  I want to get honey frames that did not have larvae in them.  Perhaps its just not that important

If they have larvae in them, they aren't honey frames.

Bees want a consolidated brood nest.  The only reason you find larvae in supers is either because they needed more room, or they needed drone brood and there was not enough in the old tough brood combs and old tough brood combs are hard to rebuild, while soft was in the supers is easy to rebuild into drones.

Here's what Isaac Hopkins said about excluders:

"Queen Excluders," as they are usually called...are very useful in queen rearing, and in uniting colonies; but for the purpose they are generally used, viz., for confining the queen to the lower hive through the honey season, I have no hesitation in condemning them.  As I have gone into this question fully on a previous occasion, I will quote my remarks:—

"The most important point to observe during the honey season in working to secure a maximum crop of honey is to keep down swarming, and the main factors to this end, as I have previously stated, are ample ventilation of the hives, and adequate working-room for the bees.  When either or both these conditions are absent, swarming is bound to take place.  The free ventilation of a hive containing a strong colony is not so easily secured in the height of the honey season, even under the best conditions, that we can afford to take liberties with it; and when the ventilating—space between the lower and upper boxes is more than half cut off by a queen-excluder, the interior becomes almost unbearable on hot days.  The results under such circumstances are that a very large force of bees that should be out working are employed fanning-, both inside and out, and often a considerable part of the colony will be hanging outside the hive in enforced idleness until it is ready to swarm. 

"Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end—swarming—is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space.  This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season.  A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks. 
 
"For my part I care not where the queen lays—the more bees the more honey.  If she lays in some of the super combs it can be readily rectified now and again by putting the brood below, and side combs of honey from the lower box above; some of the emerging brood also may be placed at the side of the upper box to give plenty of room below.  I have seen excluders on in the latter part of the season, the queens idle for want of room, and very little brood in the hives, just at a time when it is of very great importance that there should be plenty of young bees emerging."--Isaac Hopkins, The Australasian Bee Manual
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Michael Bush
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MagicValley
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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 11:05:31 AM »

This morning was nice, no rain or drizzle.  I pulled off the super, pried the honey excluder out of the mess of open drone comb and removed it.  I chipped off all the excess wax on the top of the upper deep and put the super back on.  All the frames in the super have drawn comb from last year.  The 2nd super has no drawn comb, so its waiting in the shed until the colony fills the 1st super.

So much for that experiment.  Later today I'll whittle down some corks and plug 2 of the 3 holes I drilled in the super.
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 10:09:21 PM »

I have seen some people turn the excluder sideways, which leaves the front and rear 'Unexcluded' so to speak and some of the excluder hanging outside the hive. The frameless excluders that is.
 It may not stop the queen from going above,nbut may discourage herwhi;e leaving workers easy access to the upper boxes.
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charlie68
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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2013, 09:38:07 PM »

can't believe you would consider killing a hive because you dont no what you are doing
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2013, 09:36:24 AM »

>Yes, I know that is the simple answer.  I want to get honey frames that did not have larvae in them.  Perhaps its just not that important

Bees do not scatter brood all over, they build a brood nest.  This is where they prefer to have their brood as they have to heat it and care for it.  Most frames of honey are frames of honey.  I don't understand why you think this is complicated.

>Sooner or later I'll close up the hive, put a couple pounds of dry ice in a super, and euthanize the entire colony.  Then I'll pry apart the wax mess in the two deeps, clean it all up, and get a new queen with 3 pounds of bees.

I have no idea what you think that will accomplish, other than kill all the bees.  Why would you kill productive bees?  The only reason I can think of that anyone would want to kill bees is if they are extremely aggressive and I see no where that you say they were aggressive.  And even then I would requeen...
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Michael Bush
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Carol
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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2013, 01:05:14 PM »

I would think it would go faster if you used the bees you have....but then I am a newbie....who knows...can't imagine killing off a perfectly good hive just because they do things their way.
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Finski
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2013, 01:50:43 PM »

I would think it would go faster if you used the bees you have....but then I am a newbie....who knows...can't imagine killing off a perfectly good hive just because they do things their way.

Why it must go faster? It takes its own time.

You cannot set goals to bees. They do not listen.

it is same with comb drawing: faster, - why?

.
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danno
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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2013, 08:14:20 PM »

I read this thread and expected a punch line!!!   Are you kidding me?
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Dash12721
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2013, 10:13:23 AM »

I will build two new deeps and donate them to you if you decide to kill the bees.  I'm sure we can locate a beak in your area to take your "problem" off your hands.  Let us know.

Dash
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