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Author Topic: Cut Out Ethics  (Read 884 times)
chux
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« on: May 17, 2013, 09:44:26 AM »

Hi All, I am new here, but enjoy what I am reading. I started beekeeping this year. I have one captured swarm doing great in a Top Bar Hive. I have one package installed in another Top Bar Hive, that is queenless right now. They made supercedure cells, and got rid of old queen. New queens hatched out and swarmed. Took half the package with her last week. I have one Lang Deep full of bees and a queen, with a Medium of frames going on tomorrow. Just filled another deep from a cut out in an old abandoned house. Put empty frames in a medium on top of that. There are several swarm cells in the comb I removed fromthe house and put in this deep.

Here is my question. Where should I draw the line when it comes to cut outs? I know of two more feral colonies right now in an old barn. I'd love to get some different opinions about the ethics of taking these wild colonies that are doing well, and putting them in my apiary. Keep in mind that the building they are in may be there another 100 years, or could be sold and taken apart for the salvage wood at any time. Thanks for the thoughts.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 09:53:39 AM »

i think it's ok to take them.  you can propagate the queen lines, and you keep them from being sprayed or destroyed.  i don't see a problem with it.

it's also a myth that a feral colony will survive forever in a wall.  those walls have probably seen many colonies come and go.  if you don't have to make the wall bee proof when you are done, you'll probably go back next year and find more bees.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
nietssemaj
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 10:26:08 AM »

If you are concerned about removing them, you could also place bait hives near the barn and probably capture a cast swarm from these bees.

Neither solution of course addresses the property rights of the owner of the barn. Assuming of course it isn't yours. At least with a bait hive you haven't messed with their building.
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Haddon
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 12:21:31 PM »

I am with kathy people tell me all the time the hive has been there 30 years. When I get in the wall i find tons of old dead outs so thinking they will live a 100 more years just isnt what happens all hives have stress everyone has droughts the bees will die at some point. But no one ever knows because its the first scouting place for next years swarms.

I would suggest the bait hives, but dont do like me say you are going to build them and get to busy or build them like I do then they are the first thing you grab when its split times so all your "bait hive" have bees in them lol. I think I could easly get 10 or so swarms a year with bait hive but I dont ever find the time to put them up.

Why I think I could get that many or more over the year I know were the hives are people would not pay me to remove. So with this info I know where the swarm is coming from and as you do it over the years you will learn. I removed a hive from a building this week it was 3 doors down from a hive I removed last year. I bet I could put a swarm/nuc box up at any of those locations and catch swarms from the trees or other structures near there.
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Haddon
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2013, 12:46:24 PM »

On the ethics issue this one will get you if I put out the swarm traps and caught all the swarms say I caught 10 to 20 in the spring that would mean I could have stopped 10 to 20 hives from moving into walls in which I could have been paid to remove them now thats a ethics question lol.

Better one I was at a rich mansion on Saturday of bud 5s family pictures anyway a swarms lands in the tree while I am standing there no lie. So I tell the girl taking the photos if she get the okay from the home owner I will pick them up they didn't call till days later. I guess I could have just did it without the okay but then I would have given up the chance to take apart a mansion lol.

I just think of it this way every swarm lost or hive left is another chance for the bees to repopulate the trees and get back to the natural way things should be.

Also Chux never remove a hive without the land lords okay bees aint worth jail. I have lots were a neighbor calls but most people understand when I tell them it isn't their house so they cant give me permission to even inspect it.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 01:21:46 PM »

Quote
I have lots were a neighbor calls but most people understand when I tell them it isn't their house so they cant give me permission to even inspect it

good point.  i ran into this last year when a guy wanted me to pick up a swarm in his neighborhood, but on a neighbors property.  i said no unless that neighbor gave me permission.  guy got really ticked off.

he was good enough to call me later an apologize.  turned out the swarm was on the property of a guy who had a couple of hives in his backyard.  he kept the swarm.  probably came out of one of his hives anyway.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
chux
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2013, 07:22:22 AM »

Thanks for the input, folks. I did see evidence of a dead out in this cutout we just did, but didn't know what I was seeing till you said something. "Bees been there ten years." Honey stain in the cavity of the wall below current colony. Waxy covering to wood inside this section of wall. Some tracks from wax moth?? on wall. Current colony was above a 2x4 that was at the top of this section, and had just started building some new comb in this section.

I do have permission from the land owner to do cut outs at the barn. I wish I knew the future for the property. You folks make a great point about the possibility of catching several swarms from these hives if I leave them alone. How far from the colony would you put your swarm trap? Use a 5 frame Nuc??
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Moots
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2013, 08:39:33 AM »

Chux,
It's an interesting question, the thought has crossed my mind also...But I think you're over thinking it.  After all, we're Beeks, not Bee gods!  Smiley

In the big scheme of things the fate of those 2 hives are insignificant to the big picture. Think of the number of hives such as those that get sprayed on a daily basis that we never even know about.

By all means, I think we all should try to 'do the right thing" but agonizing over, and bringing the posibility of future land sales and lifespan of structures into the equation, is probalby a bit much.  Smiley

I'd say, keep it simple, if you want the bees, do the cutouts...Properly and in a responsible manner, making every reasonable effort to save the bees.  If it's more trouble than it's worth, walk away or do some swarm traps instead, if you'd like. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either way.  At the end of the day, NO ONE knows if the life span of those 2 colonies will be longer in those walls or your hive boxes.

Good luck!

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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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blanc
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2013, 10:10:14 AM »

Chux I love my couple top bar hives and find they are the most productive hives as far as buildup but has the disadvantage of harvesting honey so my overall plan for it is pollination and nucs. Had did a split from my first tbh to a second about three months back and already they fill 38 inches x 14 inch of a 4 ft box. My first box was hit by power company spraying and will use the second to rebuild the first in next couple weeks. As far as the ethics question it is always good to do the right thing up front and you will be rewarded on the end. When your name gets out there enough you will find more than enough bees to keep you busy!  grin
Blanc
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greenbtree
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2013, 11:05:54 AM »

I think on the ethics end of things you are golden no matter what you decide to do.  I personally would put up some bait hives (I make bait hives out of foam board, they are light to carry, cheap and easy to make, and I am less likely to grab them when I need to make a split RIGHT NOW!  rolleyes).  Then I would touch base with the owner, make sure he has a couple of my business cards or my phone numbers, tell him that if the situation changes (the barn will be torn down or rented out) that you will remove them.

JC
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duck
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2013, 01:29:53 PM »

On the ethics issue this one will get you if I put out the swarm traps and caught all the swarms say I caught 10 to 20 in the spring that would mean I could have stopped 10 to 20 hives from moving into walls in which I could have been paid to remove them now thats a ethics question lol.

Id rather catch or remove swarms all day long than do removals! Alot nicer, alot cooler!
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