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Author Topic: WELL... It's time for a handgun - I need your input.  (Read 14028 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2013, 12:41:03 PM »

> we were vigilant to make sure the kids understood it was not a toy.

And I'll bet they saw and heard it shot.  That makes it quite real...
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« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2013, 02:14:06 PM »

I recently changed doctors when we moved and the Doc asked all the BS questions like how hot is the water heater, how cold is the fridge. Then came the "are there guns in the house"
I said yes. He then asks if they are locked up. I say no. He gets this real weird look on his face, then I explain to him it is on my person at all times and therefore does not need to be "locked up". Boy the look I got! ...Priceless
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« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2013, 11:46:07 PM »


However, it does bother me a little bit when you refer to another weapon as having a "true safety", somehow implying that the Glock does not.  While it's true that the Glock doesn't have a traditional style "independent switch" safety. 
A "safety," in my opinion, is something that keeps that trigger from being pulled and hence, firing the weapon. You are very correct - I should have said "traditional style."
I can remember when Glocks were packed in plastic Glock cases that had the pole extruding. The trigger opening was placed on that pole and the gun positioned in the case. Gaston was shocked to learn that crazy Americans were shooting themselves by leaving those Glocks loaded in the case. The case gets dropped, the momentum shifts the gun fwd and BANG!  So much for the "safety" of that trigger!  Smiley

Quote
This is one of the many reasons why I like the Glock, it follows the KISS principle and keeps it as simple as possible.....PULL THE TRIGGER, and it will fire, DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER, and it won't.
  I cannot think of a finer handgun for a Law Enforcement Officer when the chips are down. He/she may need that extra 1/3 of a second that it would take to flick off a traditional safety. The Glock, and it's unique trigger safety system is the only way to go when you need it and you need it NOW!
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« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2013, 07:40:10 AM »

If you get some realistic, grappling-range, "pain-based" training, you'll probably find that you prefer a pistol without a traditional safety, or at least to carry your pistol with the safety off.

Most civilian defensive shootings occur very quickly, in the dark, and at contact range. Think George Zimmerman/Martin Trayvon. Loosening your grip to fumble with a safety when a bad guy has his hands on you and you have so much adrenaline going that you've lost your fine motor skills is problematic.

Safeties and retention holsters are for open carry. For concealed carry, KISS.

Not a Glock fan, but I like H&K USPc's and Kahrs, both of which have no safeties, but triggers that feel like a double-action revolver's.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:43:31 PM by Oblio13 » Logged
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« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2013, 06:56:56 PM »

John, Just a word on my experience, I have cch permit. Have had a S&W model 36 for 20 some odd years, it only shoots five (5) times before reloading, Never had a problem with needing more. It's .38 special, Chiefs special. I also own Glock 27 .40 cal. with extended mag. Also last week bought a new S&W Bodyguard .380 with laser. it has a full safety and is my choice for carry.. iwb as I too am a lefty. But you should go to range/gun shop and SHOP.. As for .357 if you want to shoot thru an engine block it is gun of choice, stopping power- POOSH- to fast unless you hit something vital the guy will cut you uppppp...best stopping power is 1911 45acp with hollow point. 6 feet out of barrel starts tumbling, hits you in arm will knock you down..   for what its worth-- JPBEEGETTER.
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« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2013, 11:57:57 PM »

About the 1911 (so many versions out there) including the Sig P238 (.380) and Sig P938 (9mm) are mini 1911's and I love the whole 1911 layout a lot. Concidaring you can vary from 14oz to 2.5lbs with different layouts, the basic working of the gun are pretty remarkable - I've seen many animations on the 1911 and it truly is a brilliant design.

I want to stick with one caliber (or let's say two) with a 38 special, but it seems ammo costs has to figure into a decision, cause 35 cents a round to a buck a round is huge. So at the range I don't expect to be shooting the higher quality (more bang for the buck literally) I just can't imagine at  7 to 10 yards seeing a great difference in brands or grains of ammo - not much beyond having to off set the aiming a hair. And I'm not stating this as well as I usually do, but I believe, especially for home defense, I want the ammo that is going to best in smaller quarters.

In my home there is no single lie of fire greater than 30ft and that is really stretching it, it is more like 15-20ft from hallway and bedrooms to living/dining area.

I am kicking myself for NOT requesting 3 firearm permits, I chose two. Now I'm wishing I had the third for .22 to get general shooting and muscle memory built up. But I'm pretty set on a revolver and a semi - likely both in 9mm but I'm a whole bunch of test shooting of rentals before I even think this is what I will end up with.

So much to learn, I spend an hour or so every day reading and watching reviews on everything out there. The only good/bad thing about like ammo is 1) easily grab and load but 2) if you can't find that caliber, then you are dead in the water. The whole 38 sp. really has advantages. And even though my thinking now (and it changes often) is to have CC type hand guns, we can't carry open or concealed in NJ but having a smaller gun, one that handles recoil well is a plus in getting my wife involved. We have the same sized hands, so what ever feels RIGHT and offers the features I believe a handgun should have, then I know if I'm comfortable with it, she will likely too.

I figure 7 weeks roughly before I get the fire-arms ID card and handgun permits - that a good amount of time to at least have a good idea what I want to rent and shoot. I'm just glad anyone (over 21) can go to the firing ranges, no other requirement to get some range time in. I would hope by time my permits come that I'll have test fired a few boxes of ammo in a dozen or so guns. And I believe purchasing will go a lot smoother in confidence of which guns to buy.

Thanks everyone, still enjoying this thread and hope to have it still going long after I've purchased.

I'd love to hear some 1911 stories, but any and all are very helpful.
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« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2013, 12:52:52 AM »

I'd love to hear some 1911 stories, but any and all are very helpful.
Well, okay... in 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire happened. You see, there was this building and.... OH! Not that kind of 1911 story eh?  Smiley

I don't have anything to add except that it is interesting to me, this new adventure that you are embarking upon. I've been exposed to firearms all my life. My kids (grown) learned to shoot before they started school. it all seems so second nature to me, yet here you are - fresh as a daisy!  I jumped into bees this year knowing nothing. I guess it's KINDA the same thing!  I do admire you for your thought process. You are certainly not the usual first time gun owner.
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« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2013, 07:50:13 AM »


About the 1911 (so many versions out there) including the Sig P238 (.380) and Sig P938 (9mm) are mini 1911's and I love the whole 1911 layout a lot. Concidaring you can vary from 14oz to 2.5lbs with different layouts, the basic working of the gun are pretty remarkable - I've seen many animations on the 1911 and it truly is a brilliant design...

John Browning was a genius, but don't drink too much of the Kool-Aid. Despite the cult following, it's a century-old cavalry pistol. Advances have been made in the last hundred years.

... ammo costs has to figure into a decision...

You can minimize ammo costs by making most of your practice dry firing. And when you do go to the range, only put a few rounds in each magazine, and throw in an occasional inert round. That will give you practice with mag exchanges, emergency reloads, malfunction drills, etc. Most people "practice" by standing on a square range with their pistol already drawn and popping at a paper target until they run dry. That's not good training for any adversarial encounter. Once again, I urge you to get professional training so you'll have a foundation to build on, otherwise you'll just be reinforcing bad habits.


... And even though my thinking now (and it changes often) is to have CC type hand guns, we can't carry open or concealed in NJ but having a smaller gun, one that handles recoil well is a plus in getting my wife involved...

A full-size pistol is much easier to shoot effectively than a compact, all else being equal.

.... As for .357 if you want to shoot thru an engine block it is gun of choice...

It'll just make a lead smear on the outside. There is no practical pistol caliber that will reliably penetrate an engine block.

...best stopping power is 1911 45acp with hollow point. 6 feet out of barrel starts tumbling, hits you in arm will knock you down...

No, no and no.
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« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2013, 08:07:27 AM »


About the 1911 (so many versions out there) including the Sig P238 (.380) and Sig P938 (9mm) are mini 1911's and I love the whole 1911 layout a lot. Concidaring you can vary from 14oz to 2.5lbs with different layouts, the basic working of the gun are pretty remarkable - I've seen many animations on the 1911 and it truly is a brilliant design...

John Browning was a genius, but don't drink too much of the Kool-Aid. Despite the cult following, it's a century-old cavalry pistol. Advances have been made in the last hundred years.

... ammo costs has to figure into a decision...

You can minimize ammo costs by making most of your practice dry firing. And when you do go to the range, only put a few rounds in each magazine, and throw in an occasional inert round. That will give you practice with mag exchanges, emergency reloads, malfunction drills, etc. Most people "practice" by standing on a square range with their pistol already drawn and popping at a paper target until they run dry. That's not good training for any adversarial encounter. Once again, I urge you to get professional training so you'll have a foundation to build on, otherwise you'll just be reinforcing bad habits.


... And even though my thinking now (and it changes often) is to have CC type hand guns, we can't carry open or concealed in NJ but having a smaller gun, one that handles recoil well is a plus in getting my wife involved...

A full-size pistol is much easier to shoot effectively than a compact, all else being equal.

.... As for .357 if you want to shoot thru an engine block it is gun of choice...

It'll just make a lead smear on the outside. There is no practical pistol caliber that will reliably penetrate an engine block.

...best stopping power is 1911 45acp with hollow point. 6 feet out of barrel starts tumbling, hits you in arm will knock you down...

No, no and no.

Based on my and Oblio's gentleman's differing of opinion on another thread, I'm sure my endorsement carries little weight... grin

That being said, I think he's 100% spot on with every comment made above...  Smiley

I especially like his recommendation for dry firing, I think this is one of the best things you can do to improve your accuracy and it can be done easily from anywhere and cost nothing.  As always, just be sure to double check that your weapon is not loaded and pick yourself a relatively safe target (As in a light switch, not a spouse!  laugh)

Good Luck!
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« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2013, 11:35:02 AM »

...

I especially like his recommendation for dry firing...

just be sure to double check that your weapon is not loaded and pick... a relatively safe target

(As in a light switch, not a spouse!  laugh)


Don't laugh folks, ALWAYS treat every gun like it is loaded, no matter what.  A couple of my acquaintance likes to dress up like Dale and Roy and then play cowgirl and cowboy games.  One of them shot the other (thankfully non fatally) in the chest with a single action Colt .45 Peace Maker revolver while practicing their fast draw and dry fire.  When the Po-Po investigated they found 11 rounds of Colt .45 Cowboy Action ammo lying on the pool table, and 1 freshly fired cartridge still in the cylinder of one of the revolvers.  Cry

Likewise, years ago while watching the grown men of the extended family roll their own or dip snuff on the front porch after Sunday dinner, one of my second cousins twice removed asked me, "Hey boy, you know I have a hole in my left leg."  When I said I didn't know that he rolled up the britches leg on his overalls to reveal an hollow artificial leg from mid calf down.  It seems that years ago the local boys had been out rabbet hunting.  When they got home and sat down on the same front porch is when the horse play began.  That is when my cousin with the artificial leg shoved his left foot out in front and said, "Here Billy Bob, shoot my foot off."  Billy Bob obliged him.  This little show and tell had its intended effect on me.  Now I never aim a gun at any thing that matters if I shoot it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 03:02:41 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2013, 07:04:05 PM »

DeWalt Rapid Fire Nail Gun by FirearmPop


Here you go Beemaster.
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« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2013, 07:29:12 PM »

    Thats enough of the techo stuff, I can picture you now John dropping swarms out of the pine trees with Scott and Bud.
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« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2013, 08:25:30 PM »

we just need pics of john and tracy on the range.   evil

togetherness.
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« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2013, 10:29:46 PM »



Having been in a self defense situation with a 12 gauge shotgun, I will never be in that position again.  The barrel is too easy for the invader to grab.  You think self defense situations will have some distance.  They do not.  They are always face to face and a long gun is not the appropriate weapon.  The other issue is having a gun out of site but in your hand can keep situations from escalating when they don't need to.  I bought my first handgun the day after an intruder tried to take a 12 gauge away from me.  I knew he was drunk and confused and thought he was at his cousin's house and the gun made him think I was the intruder with a weapon.  I really did not want to kill him, and I didn't, but I did not like the way the situation went.  I've also been in the same position (before the previous incident) with a 30/30.  Again, face to face.  This time with a guy who was beating his wife, who was now in my living room.  Again I was wishing the barrel was short so he couldn't grab it.  I'm much happier with a small, simple, handgun with enough power to stop someone....

If you're concerned about someone disarming you but are unable or unwilling to shoot them, the muzzle of any rifle, shotgun or pistol makes an awesome dental instrument.
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« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2013, 09:08:37 AM »

> the muzzle of any rifle, shotgun or pistol makes an awesome dental instrument.

Not when it is in the grip of the person you just confronted... and that happens in a heartbeat.
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« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2013, 04:45:04 PM »

Good to be back on this topic, I read and reread everything I can here and spend all the time I can learning all I can. I visited a gunshop/range last week (2 actually but one place was out of weapons and ammo) and the better place was carrying a massive amount of weapons and a very good deal of ammo.

Both places spent time talking with me, and although you can not handle any weapon in NJ without a FID, they all but put the pistols in my hands, showing me each handgun I had interest in. I appreciated their interest in a new prospective owner and customer, especially since the latter place was busy with a load of people looking and buying.

I've moved my thinking on which semis I like as I watch more and more reviews and even more importantly, trigger in (no pun intended) on the likes and dislikes I see about each gun.

I started as you might remember looking at the Sig (and yes, I can't help it but I like the Sig line of handguns) their Sig-nightsites are impressive although wouldn't be a major factor in rejecting other handguns. The guns I've studied and got to at least look at are below and I'll give some of my thinking as my choices evolved.

I looked at the P238 .380 SAO 6rd. - a seriously tiny loosely-based 1911 CCW that comes in at 15oz. w/o mag. It seemed (before a face to face) like a nice idea, something my wife and I, both with small hands could handle easily and with the ability to rack the slide with the safety on seemed a great feature (still like that) for this SAO handgun. Frankly though, I think it too tiny, ideal maybe for CCW or second CCW but I just didn't like the size, even though recoil might be fair and the weapon is very popular, it moved to the bottom of my list when,

I started reading about the Sig P938 a 9mm bigger brother of this P239. Selling features I liked were it had a Ambidextrous safety, but as much as I like this heftier sized (still mid-size) gun, it had serious issues in earlier production, mostly with extracting 116 gr. ammo, lots of FTF, FTE, stove piping. The problem seemed to be a too weak extractor and guide spring tension - 124 gr. and up rounds seemed to have few problems. Seems for about 4 months or so Sig has addressed this issue and new owners at Firingline Forum, Youtube's many channel owners hosting hundreds and even thousand videos on all aspects of their collections, borrowed guns and Smithing of weapons - a good resource when serious gun owners have thousands of comments on videos (IMHO) but even though the break-down of the P938 (as in the P238) aren't complicated and again 1911'ee I continued looking for other handguns that seem to click with me better. Still being nowhere near buying anything, and still window shopping, I do think I've learned continually and I not much confuses me in terminology when reading/watching gun reviews.

So.... I got to see a M11-A1 (new version of the Service Pistol P228) some say its a wannabee copy of the original, but I never had the original, but the P228 has an amazing history from all I have read - nothing new to most of you, but fascinating to me.

The M11-A1 is a heavy gun weighing in at 32 ounces, chambered in 9mm, 15 round mags. decocker which does NOT place the hammer all the way down, but holding it a good 1/4" away from the firing pin, returning the gun to DA with a 10lb/4lb short reset trigger (seriously short) a learning curve PRACTICE will definitely bring confidence with. The gun also has no Picatinny rail (something I wouldn't want on a handgun, I don't see a need for laser-sight or flashlight and aesthetically I think a handgun looks more attractive without it. But personal safety wise, I know DA/SA in these cases use long first trigger pull as the main safety and I can live with that. I like DA/SA after seeing the pluses and minuses, some thinks it throws off the shooting when going from 10lb to 4lb pull - makes sense to me, but in a home invasion situation (and trust me in NJ you don't defend property only self and other) so in my home there is no long distance to have to recalculate my trigger pull - the longest run is no further than 7 yards and I sure hope to be well versed to hitting center mass when that is my longest run. with 15 rounds, I would not hesitate to fire until a threat was ceased.

All that said.

I've been really trying some things to see how a two pound HG feels, I have a re-hab weight (mini-barbell) in 2lb, also about 7 inches long, fastened a grip (don't ask - lol). and it is comfortable. I have held it for minutes and minutes imagining range time, reload time, stance, etc., and it surely is NOT out of the question. I have to say for a few weeks now the M11-A1 has been looking really nice, both at the gunshop, and through so many hours of feedback from great resources.

So, my friends

Mind you, I just thought of this, you cannot buy, sell, trade a BB-Gun or Pellet gun in NJ without a FID, it's no wonder the NRA ranks us 2nd toughest gun-law state. California and Massachusetts seems like they don't approve 95% of the handguns on the market allowed shipped into their states. But NJ at least allows shipping to FFL dealers and surprizingly, ammo can be shipped from out of state directly to the FID holder.

So I have a few questions, I know I'll get answers to all and thank you ahead of time.

1) do you own the M11-A1 or P228 and if so what are you good and bad points. Obviously the 228 is more a cosmetic comparison, although Sig does have 228 marked on the grips of the M11-A1.

I have looked at both external hammer and striker fired guns and I like the idea of seeing the hammer, not just a little rear dot indicator on some striker fired guns. I am very visual and seeing that hammer is comfort and feedback that I think will serve me well in being a safe shooter.

2) Has anyone bought/sold through www.gunbroker.com - I have to believe everyone knows about this sight with its well rated (overall) history as an auction house site. I follow it closely, learning comparisons on features, why this gun sells for that, but won't get a bid for that amount of money. It is actually fun to watch an a really quick reference for specs.

I want to add that I think I'm about 4 to 6 weeks away from FID and 2 HG Permits - the law is pretty clear I would have gotten a NO by now if I was going to be rejected. Although the same law says that gun licensing in NJ will take place within 30 days. It seems like forever, I'm at the five week mark since I filed with my PD but the finger printing was just on the 11th of June if I remember - so this could be sometime around my birthday in August I get notified (you must pick-up FIDs at local PD).

Please keep this going. Oh, and I haven't forgot a revolver, I think that should be a .22 so I have something range cost friendly, yet simple to operate, maybe not the choice home protection weapon but something that I know I can get my wife more quickly adapted to using and even bring out her competitive side leading to a sport we might both share beyond gun-handling instructional classes.


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« Reply #96 on: July 01, 2013, 05:32:15 PM »

Not an answer you were looking for, but I have the BG 380 pistol. I love it. Fits your hand great. Heard others bash it, but I have had 0 issues with it. One thing I really like us the DA. Don't worry about accidental fire when pocket carrying.
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« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2013, 06:43:33 PM »

Appreciate the info all the same. Not bashing the .380 at all, it isnt the most cost effective round. Kind of why I am liking the 9mm. Fits both semi affordable range rounds and higher end whammo ammo (patent pending phrase -lol) but still a wide range of great guns like. That M1. Variant.

I didn't mention this prior, but interestingly AS A LEFTY I do several things well right handed, exclusively right handed actually, golfing and batting righty. Lefty at bowling tennis, but I believe I would handle a handgun well as a right-handed shooter. Time will tell on that one.

Thanks for posting.
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« Reply #98 on: July 01, 2013, 10:17:12 PM »


I didn't mention this prior, but interestingly AS A LEFTY I do several things well right handed, exclusively right handed actually, golfing and batting righty. Lefty at bowling tennis, but I believe I would handle a handgun well as a right-handed shooter. Time will tell on that one.


If you're equally comfortable with both your right and left hand, you should take 5 seconds to confirm which is your dominant eye...that right there will tell you whether you should be shooting a pistol right or left handed.

To find your dominant eye....fully extend your arm straight in front of you and hold your index finger up in the air, use it to cover an object across the room, such as a light switch.  Then close your right eye and reopen it...then do the same with your left eye. Whichever eye causes your finger to jump off the object when you close it is your dominant eye.
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« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2013, 12:03:04 PM »

I wouldn't be too concerned about being a lefty,  we learn to overcome a right handed world  I shoot with which ever hand fits at the moment,  my brother who is a righty has to shoot left handed because of a severe left eye dominance (I do shoot left most of the time but like to practice right every so often just to keep sharp).  two thumbs up for exposed visible hammer.  never having owned a self loader pistol those are the only issues I can legitimately address.  be safe
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