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Author Topic: WELL... It's time for a handgun - I need your input.  (Read 11783 times)
Oblio13
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« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2013, 08:49:28 AM »


And in addition to your definition, clips can also be used to insert ammo directly into the weapon, an M1 Garand probably being the best known example.  Smiley

A Garand's clips are still inserting ammo into a magazine, the magazine just happens to be internal.
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« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2013, 09:34:19 AM »

I used a .45 in the Marines. I am issued a .40 now as a law enforcement officer. I usually carry a 9mm as a personal CCW.

Urban myth says that .45 ACP hits like the Hammer of Thor, 9mm Parabellum is inadequate, and .40 S&W is some sort of compromise.

In reality, with the recent advances in bonded bullet technology, they are statistically identical in terms of real-world performance. All deliver, depending on the load, somewhere between 300 and 500 foot pounds of energy. (Which is about the energy of a thrown baseball, by the way.)

As for diameter, of course bigger is better within reason. But the unexpanded diameter of a .40 S&W is less than 5 hundredths of an inch greater than a 9mm. A .45 ACP is 96 thousandths greater. Do you really think you'll hit many more blood vessels and vital organs with that extra 45 thousandths or 96 thousandths? And remember that you're giving up magazine capacity to get it.

The military uses full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets because they're limited by the Geneva convention, and concerned with different tactical problems than us civilians. They routinely shoot through helmets, body armor, walls and vehicles at relatively long distances. Civilians, on the other hand, are usually at or near contact range in a defensive encounter, and would have a hard time convincing a jury that a fellow a ways off and on the other side of a wall was a threat.

So: Any of those three calibers with modern, good quality bonded hollow-points will perform about as well as the next, and as well as a .357 Sig or any other reasonable defensive handgun cartridge. Magazine capacity tips the scales for me. I'd rather have a 9mm or a .40 than a .45, because ammunition is like tokens at the arcade: The more you have, the longer you can play.


9mm Parabellum: 300-500 foot/pounds of energy, .356 bullet diameter

.40 S&W: 400-500 foot/pounds of energy, .4005 bullet diameter

.45ACP: 400-500 foot/pounds of energy, .452 bullet diameter
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« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2013, 10:36:45 AM »

Quote
good quality bonded hollow-points will perform about as well as the next

hollow point being the key.  john, don't have a cow when you price them (if you can find them).  buy the cheap stuff for fam fire and play.   save the hp for when it's loaded and under the bed.
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« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2013, 02:17:23 PM »

Just got home from Police department with my 4 forms correctly filled out and notarized and received my letter to take to the finger printing location. I called and made the appointment already and it is Monday, June 10th.

Leslie, a nice older lady who assisted me both yesterday on the phone and today in person was very helpful and said that it is typically just at the 8 week mark for licensing to be complete. She said that is down from nearly 4 months 6 months ago when a surge occurred.

So now, a simple 11 day wait and a 5 mile ride to the finger print emporium (lol) and everything is out of my hands.

KATHY: point well taken on use of ammo. I believe ammo makers are finally tooling up to meet demands (from what I'm reading) although I understand the balance between buying and supply will take a long time to level off due to hoarding and shortage fears.

I still wonder about .380 ammo, I haven't read where that falls in the demand hierarchy? And I had read more on the good and bad of the Ruger 380 LCP and spent about 5 hours studying the Sig P238 which is heavier (strictly a materials thing) and about twice the cost, but I see several potential issues addressed which are concerns with the Ruger. Amazing how the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

So, it's official at least, I'm on file and in the works - I don't know if anything gets done prior to the finger prints form being delivered to me to my local PD, but I am exercising my Second Amendment Rights and doing what I think is right for my family at this point in our lives.
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« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2013, 03:52:38 PM »

> it is typically just at the 8 week mark for licensing to be complete

It's a good thing you aren't in imminent danger...  In Nebraska, I would have to go to the sheriff and get a permit to buy a handgun, and then go buy the handgun.  I haven't done it in some time, but last time I did, it took me about an hour and half... yet the anti-gun people claim, if you look at their charts, that Nebraska has a waiting period... I don't know where they get that...

>but I am exercising my Second Amendment Rights

If you have to get a permit, it isn't a right, it's a privilege doled out at the whim of the government.

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« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2013, 05:27:58 PM »

>but I am exercising my Second Amendment Rights

If you have to get a permit, it isn't a right, it's a privilege doled out at the whim of the government.

I see your point Michael, although the alternative of just picking up a weapon at the local quicki-mart cause I'm entitled scares the crap out of me.

I agree that NJ is ridiculous, and that if I have no reason to NOT be given a license to own and more so to carry (the latter does not happen here) but if I have lived my 54 years incident free, than beside a phone-call back-ground check which I understand is pretty standard everywhere, then yes I should not have to be allowed the "privilege" masked as a Right to own firearms.

Luckily, I still assume 'that without cause", the best NJ's system can do is delay the process and yes it is laughable that 8 weeks is a good and lofty goal. But, with 7901 people per square mile, NJ (to me) has some credibility in monitoring what could be chaos. I'm not saying if we had grown up in a state where weapons purchase was as easy in most states, that people would be flocking to gun stores to empty the shelves.

I'm actually saying the opposite. We have been taught that police and bad people have guns, and it is for our own protection to limit the firearms - literally a guilt taught from the earliest days of the liberal mindset of education to make us fear anything that goes bang and except for those families who still hunt (in this the Garden State) no one else needs guns because we have the police to protect us.

I have read it so many times in this forum that police responding to a home invasion are there for two reasons: to call the coroner and take finger prints - I admittedly bought into the idea that being a mile away from a police department my entire life brought me safety, when in reality that is a placebo and a security blanket full of holes. It is the here and now that counts, and if no one is left alive to hear the sirens and see the flashing lights, then the illusion of safety quickly falls to pieces.

Forgive me for rambling, surely Michael I am not disagreeing as I'm sure you have read. I can see how the 99% of forum members cannot imagine 8-12 weeks to get approval to purchase a firearm as a good thing. I don't like the idea one bit my self. But I will add an analogy that I think explains the mindset fed to the people:

Growing up, my mother always cooked steak well done, I knew of no other way and although I always thought it to be tough, I never knew any different and thought that was how steak was. Then, I tried a medium rare steak one time while out to dinner and I thought that it couldn't possibly be from the same animal. I've grown to be a rare steak eater and could not image ordering or cooking a well done steak ever again. You see in NJ we are fed well done steaks as for gun laws, we don't know that there are even rare steaks out there. Mean-while, most of the country has eaten rare steaks their whole life and take for granted that all steak should be like that, but sadly it is not. I hope that paints the picture, I often believe parables are the best way to tell a story and telling a NJ gun purchaser story needs a parable.
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« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2013, 01:52:48 AM »

Only thing I ever had to do to buy a fire arm was a background check, and wait for the answer. That was before I got my carry permit. Now I just do the paper work, pay the bill and walk out. So how does the saying go? If you ----------, you might be a --------what? rolleyes Wink Smiley

I am also a range safety official at our local shooting range. police :)d2
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« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2013, 11:50:30 AM »



    It is amazing. Here in the Leftist state of California, we will soon have as hard a time purchasing ammo as we have buying firearms. Then there are states where you just walk in, have a background check and walk out with your firearm. No muss, no fuss. Amazing.
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« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2013, 04:39:07 PM »

I truly feel for California too - in my research the last few months I see "not California Compliant" on more firearms that I can count. It takes two Liberal states to show the rest of the country how bad it could be compared to how they have it.

I'm about 150 videos on the Sig Sauer P238 (hoping one of you have it and comment) and I can honestly state that, minus needing to fire one first - I believe it is the gun for me. I love the single Action, safety engaged loading the chamber feature which I think is a great added step in handling. Lots of things about it are great in this .380 mini version of the 1911. The recoil seems impressive, the night-glow sights are rare in a mini-semi and it comes in dozens of looks and also available is the extended magazine adding another finger on the grip and extra round in the mag. Lots of great feedback on gun forums and Youtube reviews. And I hope people don't take the Youtube aspect too lightly, it is my first stop resource when educating myself on anything.

But (thanks NJ) I do have 2 months or so to test drive whatever I believe fits our needs before buying - I think that is the only real plus to our system.

Sigs ain't cheap and I hope some of you share websites that you use for deals on weapons. I literally have seen $695 for the basic Sig P238 but heard of people getting it for nearly $200 less. So far, I'm not finding the prices on the lower end.

 
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« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2013, 05:11:29 PM »

Nothing wrong with the Sig line. I'm more a fan of the CZs and the 9mm 2075 Rami is about the same size. Mine has tritium night sights and the option of either 10 or 14 round magazines. The Rami comes in either a polymer or alloy frame and also in either a safety equipped or a decocker equipped versions, depending upon your preference of the controls. There are a few more options in 9mm than there is for the 380 as far as different types/makes of ammo as well. And not enough difference in recoil for me to notice.
If it's for the night stand, I'd go with a larger frame, and I like the controls on the Brownings and Smith and Wesson 3rd generation handguns for that. But I'm strange and actually see some benefit to the magazine disconnect safety feature of those. My Browning BDA 380 has the same controls and same magazine disconnect feature. If it looks like a bad guy might actually be able to take the gun from you, just drop the magazine, kick it out of play and let him have it - because now it's just a paperweight.

I managed to buy a fairly nice Smith and Wesson 411 40 caliber off of GunBroker.com

Of course you would chose to do this on the tail end of a buying frenzy, so some of the online prices are still inflated a bit.
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« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2013, 09:58:15 AM »

Smith MP Shield in 40 cal
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« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2013, 03:10:32 PM »

I truly feel for California too - in my research the last few months I see "not California Compliant" on more firearms that I can count. It takes two Liberal states to show the rest of the country how bad it could be compared to how they have it.

I'm about 150 videos on the Sig Sauer P238 (hoping one of you have it and comment) and I can honestly state that, minus needing to fire one first - I believe it is the gun for me. I love the single Action, safety engaged loading the chamber feature which I think is a great added step in handling. Lots of things about it are great in this .380 mini version of the 1911. The recoil seems impressive, the night-glow sights are rare in a mini-semi and it comes in dozens of looks and also available is the extended magazine adding another finger on the grip and extra round in the mag. Lots of great feedback on gun forums and Youtube reviews. And I hope people don't take the Youtube aspect too lightly, it is my first stop resource when educating myself on anything.

But (thanks NJ) I do have 2 months or so to test drive whatever I believe fits our needs before buying - I think that is the only real plus to our system.

Sigs ain't cheap and I hope some of you share websites that you use for deals on weapons. I literally have seen $695 for the basic Sig P238 but heard of people getting it for nearly $200 less. So far, I'm not finding the prices on the lower end.

 


    I learned today, Colorado politicians pushing gun control, are being recalled !!!   applause
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« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2013, 05:52:12 PM »

I just got a new internet connection in my own home. so I came to beemaster first of course! this is a very interesting thread and I have to say I'm with the revolver or a shotgun crowd.  as a lefty myself I've only had trouble with 1 type of auto loader, the m16 had a bad habit of throwing hot brass down the collar of your uniform (discounting right hand safeties and controls but were used to having things like that backwards).  Alaska is a right to carry state,  3 day wait for a handgun and no permit required for concealed carry, you are required to declare if you're ever stopped by the police,  and get this even with my old felony in 2 more years they will clear my record and allow me to have my guns back If I can stay out of trouble that much longer (10 years from end of probation for 1st time felony)!  but then out here You can get uncomfortably low on the food chain in places and we take that into account.  happy birthday to Tracy. and have as much fun as you can learning this new lifestyle.
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« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2013, 06:15:59 PM »

Another milestone (I GUESS) I had the finger-printing part done today, 11 days after filing paperwork at local PD. I had to take a form I had notarized to the finger print emporium, after finger printing I received a receipt that I needed to return to the PD. The PD copied both the original and the receipt from the finger print emporium and returned the originals to me after photo-copying. Again, I heard it should be about 2 months.

So... that is it for all I do except get to the firing range, and test drive some handguns and get range time in with the instructor. Interesting (seems surrealistic in NJ) that you DON'T need a firearm ID card nor handgun permit to rent weapons and fire them at the ranges. Trust me, I am a bit shocked that NJ lets people practice and sample firearms before throwing a permit our hand and have us grab up the first thing that meets our fancy - likely this wise allowance in NJ gives prospective owners to learn about what they are embarking on.

I have mentioned a few handguns, I liked the Sig P238 until I saw the .380 shot toward a gong at 80 yards and realized I could see the bullet in flight the last 30 yards. Not that I see shooting a .380 at anything that far, but it demonstrated the relatively weak round (pretty sure it was around 120 grain).

More after dinner...
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« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2013, 07:26:19 PM »

Still no dinner, but it's cooking Smiley

So, I been on a real path of enlightenment, a journey through the internet (ok, I watched a bunch of Youtube and read some forums) but I started following the Sig P938, the 9mm bigger brother to the P238.

Now, this Sig (as the other) as very popular carry size 1911 style, single action guns - the P938 has the added feature for us lefties of a ambidextrous safety, but still has the small size, easy of breakdown, features I have been leaning toward in the last few months searching.

When the P938 first came out, many if not most reviews were mixed with FTE and occasionally FTF issues, especially with low grain ammo. Sig addressed this issue finally a few months back by beefing up the extractor which seems to have fixed the issue. I have seen/read no negative reviews on guns who had the extractor replaced or newer P938s with the beefier extractor.

Cost is crazy, as prohibitive to most as is availability, but it will be the first range rental I want to try and I'll start dial-inning what features and feels best suit what I eventually will buy. The point, I don't mind renting every gun that fits criteria that I establish as I go until something seems like what I really want for a semi-auto. Not, I still have all intention on a revolver first, I appreciate the feedback on that issue and take it very strongly.

But I know for range shooting, I can see having a semi that will be a good weapon to practice with and deal with the issues that occur with semi-autos that need hands on practice to be proficient in handling in a safe a speedy way.

OK... dinner this time - more to come.

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« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2013, 09:58:18 PM »

I know sometimes we write to read ourselves write, hope this ain't one of those times.

Been thinking about adding a sub-forum in SPORTS BAR FORUM on Guns and Ammo. Really wanted to add a few topics to get that forum off the ground a bit. All the 2nd Amendment stuff fits nicely in Coffee House, but I'd be blind not to see you all mostly have your favorite firearms and might just like to share the good and the bad.

If anyone is reading this, sure like feedback on anything I've covered, especially wondering if anyone here has the Sig P938 - I'm hoping to get to the range by next week. Told a coworker that if he brought the ammo, I'd rent him a gun Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2013, 10:08:03 PM »

Sig got some huge government contracts and has been outsourcing components. They're having some quality control issues.

Maybe try an H&K USP compact with a LEM trigger before you plunk down your money. I think it's the best combat handgun there is right now. It's bulky and heavy for light clothes, so a Kahr P9 is my favorite "summer gun".
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« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2013, 11:04:32 PM »

If anyone is reading this, sure like feedback on anything I've covered, especially wondering if anyone here has the Sig P938 - I'm hoping to get to the range by next week. Told a coworker that if he brought the ammo, I'd rent him a gun Smiley

Congratulations on your decision. Wise man! 
Also, even though ammo is not cheap, you are on the exact right track. So many of us, myself included, buy our first handguns because of the look or the name. We know nothing about the actual firearm. Renting one or firing someone else's gun is the BEST way to know for sure if you like it or not.

I have many firearms and the all have their + and -.  I like a gun that is fun to shoot. If I can take it to the range and fire away and not dread the recoil, the ill fitting grip, and actually hit what I aim at, it is a fun gun! Not all guns are fun guns. Find YOUR fun gun.

I have the Sig that you are looking at and I sincerely wish the miles did not separate us. I would let you fire it and four others for comparison.

I carry a Kel-Tec 9mm everyday. It is an "OK" gun to shoot and I like it better than the Sig.  I love the long trigger pull on the Kel-Tec and I trust this weapon. If you are not carrying the handgun, please do not overlook the Glock. Yes, the barrel looks cocked upward but it is very accurate and my MOST FUN gun to shoot. I have the G19 and although you could carry it, it is too big and bulky for my preference. If I was in my house and had ALL my 9mms to choose in an emergency, the G19 would be the one I would grab. Since it does not kick like a mule and is indeed fun, I am most experienced with it. With experience comes accuracy.

With that being said, I am NOT a fan of the Glock trigger safety. I just recently bought 9mm pistols for my three "kids" and they all LOVE their Springfield XD9 handguns! I chose this for them because it is the same size and body style as the G19 but it also has a true safety on it. My oldest son is unbelievably accurate with his. I do well with it, but he puts his shots inside of a quarter at 12 yards. I cannot do that, even with my Glock.

Don't be in a rush. Fire as many as you can. Like Harry Potter's wand, the pistols will tell you which one to choose.
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« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2013, 09:56:44 AM »


Congratulations on your decision. Wise man! 
Also, even though ammo is not cheap, you are on the exact right track. So many of us, myself included, buy our first handguns because of the look or the name. We know nothing about the actual firearm. Renting one or firing someone else's gun is the BEST way to know for sure if you like it or not.

I have many firearms and the all have their + and -.  I like a gun that is fun to shoot. If I can take it to the range and fire away and not dread the recoil, the ill fitting grip, and actually hit what I aim at, it is a fun gun! Not all guns are fun guns. Find YOUR fun gun.

I have the Sig that you are looking at and I sincerely wish the miles did not separate us. I would let you fire it and four others for comparison.

I carry a Kel-Tec 9mm everyday. It is an "OK" gun to shoot and I like it better than the Sig.  I love the long trigger pull on the Kel-Tec and I trust this weapon. If you are not carrying the handgun, please do not overlook the Glock. Yes, the barrel looks cocked upward but it is very accurate and my MOST FUN gun to shoot. I have the G19 and although you could carry it, it is too big and bulky for my preference. If I was in my house and had ALL my 9mms to choose in an emergency, the G19 would be the one I would grab. Since it does not kick like a mule and is indeed fun, I am most experienced with it. With experience comes accuracy.

With that being said, I am NOT a fan of the Glock trigger safety. I just recently bought 9mm pistols for my three "kids" and they all LOVE their Springfield XD9 handguns! I chose this for them because it is the same size and body style as the G19 but it also has a true safety on it. My oldest son is unbelievably accurate with his. I do well with it, but he puts his shots inside of a quarter at 12 yards. I cannot do that, even with my Glock.

Don't be in a rush. Fire as many as you can. Like Harry Potter's wand, the pistols will tell you which one to choose.


Jackam,
I think you gave beemaster some real good solid advice...

I'm also a fan of the Glock, I have a Model 23 and I'm issued a Model 22 as my duty weapon.  I'm not sure why you're not a fan of the Glock's trigger safety, but I do understand that concerning taste there is no dispute.....So, to each his own.
However, it does bother me a little bit when you refer to another weapon as having a "true safety", somehow implying that the Glock does not.

While it's true that the Glock doesn't have a traditional style "independent switch" safety.  The Glock is an extremely safe weapon and has three independent safety mechanisms built in to prevent accidental discharge.  Anything short of a proper pulling of the trigger cannot cause the gun to fire...PERIOD.  This is about as safe as it gets in my opinion.  How many people have blown a hole through something by pulling the trigger of a weapon...."because they thought the safety was on".  Yes, a bone-headed inexcusable mistake, but we all know it has happened.  At the same time how many people have been on target ready to fire, and execute a nice trigger pull, just to realize, the safety is still on?  Just hope this one doesn't happen when you're in the middle of an encounter with a home intruder. 

This is one of the many reasons why I like the Glock, it follows the KISS principle and keeps it as simple as possible.....PULL THE TRIGGER, and it will fire, DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER, and it won't.
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« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2013, 11:48:08 AM »

ok y'all  just my own 2 cents I don't call anything on a shooter a safety, I call it a lawyer button the only true safety on any gun big or small is the one between your ears  we kept a single shot shotgun behind the door of the house when my kids were little yes it was loaded,  we were vigilant to make sure the kids understood it was not a toy. and we never had a single incident.  training training training... my girls are all excellent shots and enjoy shooting and apparently making an old man of the frozen 1,  2 grand monsters to be taught now.
 
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