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Author Topic: WELL... It's time for a handgun - I need your input.  (Read 11693 times)
kingbee
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 02:16:58 PM »

... the permit is to purchase... good for three months, but can be extended another 3 months....

... I want the weapon for home protection, I don't want a revolver, nor a pistol with excessive noise, flash or something overkill for home protection....

After a few dozen Youtube videos, I like a double-action/single action combo, just seems a bit safer before firing and fast re-fire after that....
 
a 38 special is a good all around weapon because of multiple ammo options, size and recoil - all important things.

A BIG consideration too is I'm left-handed. I want a semi-auto and wondering if the shell expeller ...

The best weapon is the weapon that you never have to use. More on this at the end of my post.  Only one weapon fits your description and that is a good old fashion pump action scatter gun.  If you can own one in New Jersey a shotgun 36 inches overall with an 18 inch barrel, a pistol grip, folding stock, and that holds 7 or more rounds may fill your needs better.  

If your not at home and the little lady needs to use it, there is no question about which end is the business end.  

It is as safe as a revolver without a round in the chamber, but the very audible SNACK... SNACK of the slide being worked to chamber the first round has a definite sobering affect on all but the most whacked out perp.  Some times loud noises are better.

But if push comes to shove a 12 gage scatter gun will put a perp's nose on the carpet (one way or the other) faster than any hand gun.  

12 gages with 3 inch long chambers and loaded with 3 inch Number 4 Buckshot sends 42 .22 caliber slugs or round balls down range..... every time you pull the trigger.  This makes precise shot placement or marksmanship unimportant at normal home defense range, which is usually from the bedroom door to the end of the hall, or less.

You can load the magazine of a pump gun with a wide variety of ammo, some of the newer copper slugs would likely drop a charging bull elephant in his tracks.  Or you can load it in such a way that the first load to come out the spout is a 2 3/4 inch long, light load of #9 bird shot.  Deadly as smallpox across a king size bed but safer for folks in another part of the house if you or the misses have an unintended discharge.

Down sides: It won' fit in the drawer of a bed side table. You can't easily sleep with it under you pillow.  If you do sleep with it I don't want to know.

You should be prepared to use any firearm, if not there is the risk that a perp can get his mitts on it too, then it becomes a "wrassling" match.  However that is a danger with any firearm.  But the fact that a scatter gun requires two hands tends to help the home owner keep control and maintain separation between himself and the intruder.

If you do buy a handgun or pistol for home defense, be sure to get one with an internal hammer and a lemon squeezer safety. Less to worry about in the dark.

I'll call this, criminals be forewarn.  I had a high school chum who worked for Wells Fargo as an armored car guard.  He carried an old Model 12 Winchester trench gun that looked like it was chrome plated but it was actually nickel plating.  When I asked him why he carried such an old and garish looking piece of armament?  He said, "Because I'm the first one to step off the running board of that armored car and I want everyone up and down the street to see that I'm carrying a shotgun." Makes sense to me.

Millions of South paws use shotguns designed for right handed shooters with no trouble.  If it really matters check out an Ithaca model 37 or M37 Trench Gun.  Short shotgun barrels designed for hunting deer with slugs are out there, add one of these "slug" barrels to your regular pump action shotgun and you have a trench gun.  
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 04:41:03 PM »

You guys (as always) are amazingly insightful - thank you. You have reopened my eyes to a revolver, although I don't see a shotgun in our future.

I live in an area where homes at best are a few hundred feet from each other and a property typically 120X80ft in size, we surely aren't secluded here and although I know mass intrusions happen, I can't see more than a lone intruder (possibly two) ever walking into homes here. I've never read it in newspapers and my point I guess, a fully loaded revolver should take care of business without the need of a quickloader (hopefully) but you never know.

I think my wife would be more comfortable with a revolver, again the keep it simple-ness of it is a selling point. I like your input concerning revolvers a lot, and a purchase to carry allows two purchases per permit, so having a semi-auto and a revolver might mix it up and give us the benefits of both weapons.

Mind you, we would buy NOTHING without research, testing, shooting, shooting and more shooting of all guns that appeal to us until we find on that we feel comfortable shooting and handling. I take safety first in everything I do, and take this purchase as serious as anything I have every done. I'm still months away before I can purchase because of the waiting period, which I feel is a good thing.

I have many friends and coworkers who will gladly assist me any way possible, all who are long-time, responsible gun owners who would JUDGE my abilities as well as teach me. I want that kind of feedback from them. And my wife will be active in all this, I'm hoping that range shooting is something she will look forward too, I want neither of us fearful of our guns, only respectful of them.

Yes, NJ and handguns are NOT as common-place as much of the country. That said, it isn't rare either, we respect the second amendment as much as anyone, it is our judicial system in this, the highest per-capita populated state that has carve both our views and the views others have of us. But as repeated, except for range practice, I hope to never use a weapon. It is like a life insurance policy, great to have but hopefully not have to use it.

Our home is small, about 1600 sq.ft. bi-level, so cut that number in half for each floor. Having two guns make it safe to get to the bedroom and depend on that gun if grabbing the living room handgun is impractical at that moment.

Kathy, although I know people supposedly never fully know what would happen when it comes to using a weapon and I know that if you aim at it, you better be prepared to kill it.  But to me, nothing comes before my wife's safety and obviously I have no intention of going down without a fight myself. I have no doubt that I could pull that trigger if needed and I know there is no such thing as a warning shot. And yes, the sound of racking a shotgun should make anyone crap themselves and turn around to the nearest exit, but I would hope the sight of a handgun pointed toward their chest would have similar effects. Of course, in the handgun example you are sight of the invader and not around the corner making it obvious what you have waiting around the next turn.

I'm confident that when all is said and done, I will do whatever it takes for us to come out unharmed and whether a baseball bat a heavy chain or whatever I can get in my hand if attacked, I will do what I can with no reservations: I might appear to be the mellow guy, layed-back guy you all have come to love ( rolleyes) but when confronted to a threatening level, then I will do whatever it takes to control and extinguish the threat.

QUESTION:

I'm curious about this. if someone breaks into your home (gun or no gun) would you give them the chance to retreat or hold them for the police?

I'd have no trouble keeping my gun pointed at an intruder, keeping him at a safe distance (far enough where I can react if he were to lunge for me or reaches for anything) while my wife calls the police. What would you do?

I know that is a broad question, but is it better to make sure your neighbors and everyone else watching sees an intruder hauled off to jail because you were armed and ready for him, or better to let him run, protecting the fact that "you are protected with weapons" to yourself and the police.

I'm sure he won't be back - of course who's to say he won't come back to steal the guns when we aren't home. Also, this doesn't discourage him from robbing (or worse) someone else, then you have to live with the knowledge you had him and let him go. That would be harder to live with than to drop hi with two rounds to the chest. So, I don't believe the second option of letting him walk is a good idea ever. Home invasion is serious and I think in this case anyone and everyone should see that I had home protection covered, and enough sense to restrain myself from killing an unarmed offender (if that were the case).

 If I saw a gun period, I know it wouldn't take much for me to drop him. I don't know (or should it matter) who is faster at the draw, but if I'm already beaded on him, and he made any move toward anything remotely like a weapon, It would be resolved immediately. There's not much difference between an Intruder appearing to drop his weapon and one preparing to whip it into his hand to shoot - that is a call I will not hesitate to act on by neutralizing his threat.

I'm sure many of you have one policy, you come into my home uninvited walking, and leave with a blanket over your face. I respect that totally, I've seen how isolated many members here are from anyone and anything, and that raises the bar, rightfully so. Being in a populated community really shouldn't play into that, but I'm hoping to have enough whits about me to assess the situation, but I also believe that at the end of the threat, no matter what, if I can help it - my wife and I are still around to fill out the police report.

Thanks again and I'm sure this post has a long ways to go, your input is very helpful.



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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 05:21:45 PM »

>What you need is a double barrel 12 guage coach gun with 20 inch barrels.

Having been in a self defense situation with a 12 gauge shotgun, I will never be in that position again.  The barrel is too easy for the invader to grab.  You think self defense situations will have some distance.  They do not.  They are always face to face and a long gun is not the appropriate weapon.  The other issue is having a gun out of site but in your hand can keep situations from escalating when they don't need to.  I bought my first handgun the day after an intruder tried to take a 12 gauge away from me.  I knew he was drunk and confused and thought he was at his cousin's house and the gun made him think I was the intruder with a weapon.  I really did not want to kill him, and I didn't, but I did not like the way the situation went.  I've also been in the same position (before the previous incident) with a 30/30.  Again, face to face.  This time with a guy who was beating his wife, who was now in my living room.  Again I was wishing the barrel was short so he couldn't grab it.  I'm much happier with a small, simple, handgun with enough power to stop someone.

It is true that a large barrel would be intimidating to a sober person.  In my experience, the kind of people who kick down your door are not sober.

>I'm curious about this. if someone breaks into your home (gun or no gun) would you give them the chance to retreat or hold them for the police?

You can't shoot them for running.  You can order them to stay, but they may not do it and I would not shoot them for it, nor would it be legal for me to do so.

>I'd have no trouble keeping my gun pointed at an intruder, keeping him at a safe distance (far enough where I can react if he were to lunge for me or reaches for anything) while my wife calls the police. What would you do?

If he runs, he runs.  If he lunges, he gets shot assuming I have reason to believe I am in serious danger.  Situations are never simple.  A unarmed 12 year old who kicks in your door is a different matter than an armed adult intruder.  I've never had an armed intruder, but I have had several intruders, including a stoned, unarmed 12 year old, on a -10 F night wearing a short sleeved shirt and no coat...
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Tim Bates
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 05:53:58 PM »

I changed my mind you should move down this way so that you can buy guns until you find the one or twenty you like.

If someone made it into my house through my hurricane fence and past the dog on the front porch that raises the hair on the back of my neck when he barks, and the duck that thinks she's a dog I will assume they are not there with good intentions and address the situation accordingly. I don't think I would hold someone against their will until police arrived, although their will should not matter in that situation, I'm sure there is some stupid law that would get me in trouble. Nor would I shoot someone that was trying to run away. All in all I don't know what I would do until I actually am in the situation. Looks like Mr. Bush has been in the situation and both of them were probably addressed differently.
 
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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 06:34:14 PM »

see if you have one of the cop or military courses around so that you can have an instructor get you though some roll playing and different scenarios.  it's more fun than just shooting down range and make you think.  it will give you a better feel for your capabilities and that of your weapon.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 06:40:49 AM »

If you shoot an intruder who's trying to run away, you're in a heap of legal trouble. The law is on your side (more or less) only if it's a clear case of self-defense against imminent danger.
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 07:28:27 AM »

a snip...
I don't need lists of your armory, just a description of your favorite hand-helds and why they are your favorite, especially keeping in mind my wife and I have little to no experience.

tecumseh...
well I will not list all... but would say for something handy and accurate my 357 colt python is hard to beat... and it slides nicely under my seat.  for the home my grand daddy's old remington double hammer 16 gauge is certainly one of the most spell bindin' weapons as far as folks on the other end are concerned and you really don't even need ammunition for that bad dog...  when you pull back the hammers and they go 'click' I will assure you that you have everyone's attention.

no experience I would read as trouble... if I was not familiar with guns I would not buy an automatic or at least not as my first gun.
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 04:35:55 PM »

Stick with two revolvers of the same ammo type over a pistol and a revolver if you are going to purchase two hand guns. 

That way there is no danger of confusing or mixing up the ammo for two different guns.  Then you never have to hand your firearm to an intruder and say, "Here buddy, would you mind holding this for me while I run down stairs to get my other ammo?"  grin
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Tim Bates
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 05:53:53 PM »

Stick with two revolvers of the same ammo type over a pistol and a revolver if you are going to purchase two hand guns. 

That way there is no danger of confusing or mixing up the ammo for two different guns.  Then you never have to hand your firearm to an intruder and say, "Here buddy, would you mind holding this for me while I run down stairs to get my other ammo?"  grin

Several manufacturers make 9mm revolvers... Ruger .357/9mm Blackhawk, Taurus Model 905, Charter Arms Pitbull.
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« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 10:16:55 PM »

...
Several manufacturers make 9mm revolvers... Ruger .357/9mm Blackhawk, Taurus Model 905, Charter Arms Pitbull.

Slugs or bullets and cartridges are not the same thing

All 9mm bullets and slugs are 9mm bullets and slugs except when they are some other diameter.  No cartridges  that I know of are "interchangeable" between automatics pistols and revolvers except for the .45ACP which can also be fired in both the M1911A1 Colt automatic pistol and the WWI era M1917 Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers, but only with the help of a dedicated 1/2 moon clip.   So I don't recommend a dukes mixture of hand guns or cartridges for a novice shooter even if they are all the "same" caliber.  BTW, a .38 special has a projectile diameter of .357 inches.  That is why a .38 Special cartridge will fire in a .357 magnum revolver without blowing the top out of the chamber because of excessive pressure.

Looked at another way, a lot of companies make .30 caliber rifles but if you try to fire a 30-06 or .308 cartridge in say a 30-30 saddle gun, you may end up with an unflattering nick name like squinty or one thumb.  Either that or your going to have one heck of a problem clearing the blockage and unloading the magazine.  With first guns I recommend the acronym KISS, especially if you begin with two or more firearms.  Also remember that even though say a 30-30 and a 30-06 have the same size and weight projectiles, it is very hazardous to hand load most .30 caliber bullets intended for a 30-06 rifle into a 30-30 cartridge case.

None of the paragraph above has anything to do with hand gun ammo but every word of it is good to remember when it comes to the interchangeability of hand gun ammo.  Just because it says 9mm on the cartridge head and on the hand gun frame doesn’t mean that it will fire in or that it is safe to fire it in your gun.
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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2013, 11:42:10 PM »

Ive gotta admit you made me look again but, the guns I listed from the best I can tell are factory 9x19 and they use full moon clips.
There are actually several center fire cartridges that have been used in revolvers the 45acp, .40 cal, .380 and the 9mm. 
I just discovered them as well. I don't actually own one nor have I shot any of them, but have looked at the charter arms and the Ruger Blackhawk

I'm not trying to recommend them just saying what's available.
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2013, 02:38:13 AM »

... not trying to recommend them just saying what's available.

I owned a M1917 revolver some years ago and while it was a good shooter and the clips were as good as a speed loader, loading the clips was something else.  You really needed a special tool just to remove the spent brass from the 1/2 moon clips so that you could load fresh rounds into the clips.  Everything is relative but I would hate to be a Dough Boy fumbling in his pockets for a pair of little bitty 3 round 1/2 moon clips while a German came after me with a bayonet.
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2013, 07:38:53 AM »

As we could have all assumed from the beginning, gun selection is much like beekeeping, everyone has their preferences and opinions, and reasons of why they like doing things one way or the other. grin

I do have one more opinion though....Concerning revolvers, personally, I'm not a big fan.  However, I appreciate some of the points made...safety, ease of operation, etc. etc.  And if you firmly believe that six rounds will suite your needs and reloading will not be a priority, I could see going that route.

However, suggesting speed loaders for a newbie to use in home defense huh  To think anyone with limited experience, especially in a pressure filled situation such as encountering a home invader, is going to posses the fine motor skills to affectively reload, is being a bit unrealistic in my opinion.

Even with significant practice, never underestimate what the "pucker factor" does to ones ability to function.  So, while there may be "some" advantages for some to own a revolver.  I believe it's short comings on number of rounds and slow inefficient loading makes it a hard sell in my book.


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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 09:03:22 AM »

I suggested a revolver because I thought the discussion was limited to handguns. Also, there are times when you don't necessarily want to wave a gun around, but you'd feel more secure with something in your pocket. A shotgun won't fit.

However, if an intruder breaks into your house and night, and you're still half-asleep and getting a stressed-out adrenaline rush at the same time, I wouldn't bank on your ability to use a speedloader. Or, for that matter, event to insert a clip and work the slide smoothly on a semi-auto. But however nervous you are, you can always rack a shotgun.
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 09:40:13 AM »


However, if an intruder breaks into your house and night, and you're still half-asleep and getting a stressed-out adrenaline rush at the same time, I wouldn't bank on your ability to use a speedloader. Or, for that matter, event to insert a clip and work the slide smoothly on a semi-auto. But however nervous you are, you can always rack a shotgun.


Phill,
I get your point about the shotgun vs. pistol pros and cons....

Again, this is going to fall into differences of opinion....But why anyone would ever have a gun for home defense and not have it loaded and ready to go, simply baffles me.  That being said, there's no need to work a slide on a semi-auto "smoothly".  Actually, it's quite the opposite, use a good hand over technique and RACK IT.  Almost everyone that has trouble with this, is because they're trying to baby it, or do it in slow mo.

And lastly....please allow me to get one small pet peeve off my chest  Smiley
I wish everyone would stop calling them clips....99% or more of what people refer to as a clip, isn't a clip, it's a MAGAZINE! There is a distinct difference!
Difference between a Magazine and a clip!
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 11:59:07 AM »

 butt kick
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2013, 01:09:02 PM »

As we could have all assumed from the beginning, gun selection is much like beekeeping, everyone has their preferences and opinions, and reasons of why they like doing things one way or the other. grin

I do have one more opinion though....Concerning revolvers, personally, I'm not a big fan.  However, I appreciate some of the points made...safety, ease of operation, etc. etc.  And if you firmly believe that six rounds will suite your needs and reloading will not be a priority, I could see going that route.

However, suggesting speed loaders for a newbie to use in home defense huh  To think anyone with limited experience, especially in a pressure filled situation such as encountering a home invader, is going to posses the fine motor skills to affectively reload, is being a bit unrealistic in my opinion.

Even with significant practice, never underestimate what the "pucker factor" does to ones ability to function.  So, while there may be "some" advantages for some to own a revolver.  I believe it's short comings on number of rounds and slow inefficient loading makes it a hard sell in my book.




    Exactly!      
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kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2013, 02:01:14 PM »

Quote
However, suggesting speed loaders for a newbie to use in home defense huh  To think anyone with limited experience, especially in a pressure filled situation such as encountering a home invader, is going to posses the fine motor skills to affectively reload, is being a bit unrealistic in my opinion.

fair point.  i rec'ed the speed loaders because even on the range, reloading is tedious.  the speed loaders make it a little faster.  + if you ever do have to reload under pressure, they are easier to handle than one round at a time.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 02:34:00 PM »

... And lastly....please allow me to get one small pet peeve off my chest ...I wish everyone would stop calling them clips....99% or more of what people refer to as a clip, isn't a clip, it's a MAGAZINE! There is a distinct difference!



Moots, I agree with you, but I hope that you didn't have me in mind when I called the M1917's half moon clips CLIPS instead of magazines.  A clip is a devise that makes it easier to insert fresh ammo into a magazine.  The cylinders on all revolvers are technically revolving magazines.

S&W Model 1917 45acp WWI Revolver


I think that the first clips were used to reload the magazines on M1896 Broom Handle Mauser pistols.  I do know that at our entrance to WWI the USA paid the German military or else the Mauser company a royalty on every 5 round stripper clip and M1903 Springfield rifle the US produced.  Below is an image of another type of clip, this time a clip used with, not in an automatic pistol.  


« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:48:27 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2013, 02:37:26 PM »

    Kathp. I would imagine, you being in the military would have experience with the semi auto. In particular the 92fs. A fairly simple firearm to function. If a person new to firearms is going to train, train and train, why a revolver? I like them. I have carried them. Simply not the best choice. A 92fs is able to carry 16 rounds! 9mm! Easy to handle! Plus after you have trained, reloading a magazine is so simple an operation.
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