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Author Topic: The Feds have it all figured out?  (Read 3926 times)
hardwood
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« on: May 02, 2013, 03:42:21 PM »

http://weather.yahoo.com/feds-many-causes-dramatic-bee-disappearance-152605922.html
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2013, 03:48:12 PM »

I am very disappointed that they did not mention the alien abduction angle at all.   
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hardwood
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 04:22:17 PM »

Yeah, cell phones either grin
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Bush_84
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2013, 08:31:11 AM »

I read the article but not the report.  I have believed for my entire beekeeping career (two years) that the reason for decline is multifactorial.  So I am glad that somebody fInally had enough sense to say that this was likely multiple things and not just one culprit.
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.
melliferal
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 11:41:00 PM »

Quote
The intertwined factors cited include a parasitic mite, multiple viruses, bacteria, poor nutrition, genetics, habitat loss and pesticides.

Wow, is that all?   grin
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Nature Coast Beek
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 08:21:58 AM »

I read the article but not the report.  I have believed for my entire beekeeping career (two years) that the reason for decline is multifactorial.  So I am glad that somebody fInally had enough sense to say that this was likely multiple things and not just one culprit.

Uhhhhh...... I think that's what ALL the scientists that have been covering CCD and the honey bee decline in general have been saying just about all along. It's all about synergy!
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scubajohn
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2013, 06:00:16 PM »

well of course they do look how well they have done in the past. every thing the feds touch is always a huge success 
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LindaL
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 09:28:08 AM »

I watched "more then honey" last weekend.   Really i think that the problem is that you are allowed to move hives with out inspection in the USA.   In Denmark if you move a hive it has to be inspected by a local bee master before you are allowed to move it.  If theirs anything wrong with the hive it cant be moved. 

If in the USA hives had to be inspected before crossing state lines then you wouldn't be spreading things all over the country in a matter of days. 

Do i think they will start doing this in the USA?  NO. not a chance.
Why?   Because it would take to much time and cost them money.

Linda
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 10:17:26 AM »

if Denmark were the size of the US and had the agricultural base in many states that he US has, they might not inspect every hive before moving them  Wink

Quote
Because it would take to much time and cost them money.


yes...believe it or not, that cost is a factor that has to be considered in many things....

http://mapfight.appspot.com/texas-vs-dk/texas-us-denmark-size-comparison

http://mapfight.appspot.com/us-vs-dk/united-states-denmark-size-comparison

a couple of graphics for size perspective.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
LindaL
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 05:40:28 AM »

if Denmark were the size of the US and had the agricultural base in many states that he US has, they might not inspect every hive before moving them  Wink

Quote
Because it would take to much time and cost them money.


yes...believe it or not, that cost is a factor that has to be considered in many things....

http://mapfight.appspot.com/texas-vs-dk/texas-us-denmark-size-comparison

http://mapfight.appspot.com/us-vs-dk/united-states-denmark-size-comparison

a couple of graphics for size perspective.


I only moved to Denmark 15 years ago so trust me i know the size difference.  Moving the hives from one state to another with out ensuring first that they aren't taking something with them is part of the problem. 

I think Germany has the same rule as Denmark does with regard to moving hives.  In Denmark we also aren't allowed to import bees from another country into Denmark with out a permit.    If you think of  European countries like American states you would understand the idea.   You cant take fruits and veggies and loads of other things from one Country to another without them being checked for the same reason.    What these big out fits are doing is hurting the local bee populations it doesn't hurt them because they are so big.    Its the Local bee keeper and the wild populations we should worry about. 

Just because something is hard and will cost money and take time does not mean its a bad idea.

Linda.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 09:29:06 AM »

Quote
Just because something is hard and will cost money and take time does not mean its a bad idea.

that is true, but consider the logistics.  have you ever driven into CA and gone through either the ag checks or the immigration checks?  you are talking about setting something like that up all over the country, in ever state.  or, you are talking about requiring beekeepers to have someone come out and inspect their hives before they are moved.

either way, you are talking about an expansion of government at a time we are broke and for what?  we don't know what causes CCD and many bee disease can only be verified in a lab.  there is no proof, only speculation, that there's harm in moving bees from one place to another....and in fact, most of the harm that's been speculated upon is that the moved bees are at risk.

god knows we don't need more government involvement in anything at this point.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
LindaL
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 03:55:28 AM »

You should try the imagination checks going from New York to Amsterdam then Amsterdam into the EU.   They are just evil....   evil      Have you seen the tv show where people land and try and get into New Zealand they are insane, if it ever lived its probably not coming into the country.

What i was thinking is its going to be hard to find an independent bee keeper to check there hives.  All they have to do is pay the guy off to say he checked them.   But if you have to have a paper from a vet before taking a dog for example from one country to another.   Which when you consider how small some country's are.  I still think it makes sense to Check them when they leave California and have to show it when they get to there destination.   All it would do is protect the locals.    Just because there's no proof of what causes it doesn't mean everything shouldn't be done to prevent it.   

If you want to talk government involvement you should move to the EU you don't know how good you have it in the USA.  Its not like we can change the way they do things,  but we can dream about what it would be like if we lived in the perfect world.   Where the government (and people in general) considered ramifications of things instead of just the bottom line. 

Linda.

PS:  Don't mind me i love having someone to debate with about stuff like this.  Not doing it to annoy you or anything. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2013, 11:42:50 AM »

Quote
Not doing it to annoy you or anything.

not to many people truly annoy me.   Wink

i know some of what you go through in the EU.  toys for pigs, and all that.  once, when i was feeling particularly masochistic, i read one of the evolutions of the EU constitution.  it was several hundred pages of rules and regulations and i wondered that anyone could turn out such a tome and think that it would be workable....but that was before Obamacare...silly me.  grin

if one state or another wants to cough up for inspections, so be it.  in general, i think the market takes care of these things if there is no government involvement.  that is: no financial compensation for loss, no support for those corporations that might be truing out something harmful, etc. 
if decisions on moving bees, or what was used on crops, was purely consumer/market driven, we'd see fewer problems....but that's as much a pipe dream as universal inspections....maybe more.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
djei5
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 01:52:38 PM »


I only moved to Denmark 15 years ago so trust me i know the size difference.  Moving the hives from one state to another with out ensuring first that they aren't taking something with them is part of the problem. 

I think Germany has the same rule as Denmark does with regard to moving hives.  In Denmark we also aren't allowed to import bees from another country into Denmark with out a permit.    If you think of  European countries like American states you would understand the idea.   You cant take fruits and veggies and loads of other things from one Country to another without them being checked for the same reason.    What these big out fits are doing is hurting the local bee populations it doesn't hurt them because they are so big.    Its the Local bee keeper and the wild populations we should worry about. 

Just because something is hard and will cost money and take time does not mean its a bad idea.

Linda.

[/quote]

Linda, at the risk of sounding completely boorish, you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. We do have checkpoints at different state lines for various fruits, veggies, and different plants. Bees, however are required to be checked every year for diseases and state apiarists can and are required to confiscate and burn every hive that tests positive for AFB. Bees however, know how to fly, and try as we might, we've not been able to get them to recognize state lines. As for your postulation that the bigger companies aren't affected, nearly ALL of them lost at least 90% of EVERYTHING! Some never have recovered. CCD has affected the entire world ..and Denmark is no exception. Denmark actually had a huge increase in bee losses the last few years. It isn't the "big outfits", once it hit, companies completely isolated hives that were state approved healthy and still they lost 90 and even 100%, like I said, you have no idea what your talking about.


David
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 03:07:24 PM »

not all states require checks.  mine doesn't.  but...your point about bees flying is a good one smiley

again, CCD like occurrences are not new.  reports predate pesticide use. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 11:28:14 PM »

georgia doesn't require you to register or get checked as long as you don't sell bees.  there are several states that require bees be inspected before crossing state lines in the south but i suspect those laws are ignored and unenforced for the most part.  i'm betting bees leave florida and pass through alabama on their way to california by the semi load without being inspected and most likely come back the same way.  i don't hear the reports of ccd down here that are coming out of the midwest and northern states.  i think the shift in agriculture across the country to monoculture farming has reduced the number of colonies that can be sustained in any particular area.  down here the pine tree farming industry has done the same thing but not to the extent that corn has on the plains states.  also i think that moving bees from one single source field to another wears hives down and that's what migratory pollination is all about.  we moved bees onto melon fields one year and it weakened all of them so we didn't go back the next year.
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jayj200
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 10:19:58 PM »

the Feds don't mention HARRP either. think birds falling out of the sky.
Is it a stretch to think bees falling out of the sky?
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capt44
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2014, 08:16:13 AM »

I think a lot of the folks in Washington are educated way beyond their intelligence.
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Richard Vardaman (capt44)
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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2014, 09:57:06 PM »

If you stop and think about it for a little while , you will realize that the Feds and the university scientists are not interested in solving the problem.  They are interested in studying the problem.  That is where their bread and butter grants come from.  Every study and report that gets printed has the same closing remark.  More study is needed.
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jayj200
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2014, 07:42:32 PM »

I think a lot of the folks in Washington are educated way beyond their intelligence.

Love it capt
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