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Author Topic: loony tree hugging leftist  (Read 7539 times)
Moots
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« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2013, 03:01:32 PM »

Blue,
Thanks for the pre-school lesson on how the markets work. That was soooo informative and educational, quite the public service you provided there.  grin

However, the conversation was about how you claim $17,000,000,000,000 in debt isn't a problem for the country and could be magically washed away by the stroke of a pen...Much like a company filling for bankruptcy and reorganizing.

An idea which is so blatantly naïve, and  simplistic, I wouldn't even consider offending pre-schoolers around the world by saying its on their level.  Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2013, 10:03:45 PM »

...

You do realize what the DEFINITION of a “desert” is, right?  [Lets be logical now, do you mean de-sert or des-ert?] ...   

Water in the West is kind of like Dollars in Washington.  If more is going out than coming in, you’re eventually going to have a

problem!  At least with dollars you can always print more to make up for the deficit... 

The laugh is on you Blue B, there is no place on Earth where water is going out faster than it is coming in, long term.  This calls into question your ability as a weather man, an environmentalist, and an economist.   

If you build a dam and trap water behind it you have the left's version of conservation.  But water can't be stored or saved  like money can, water must be quickly used or else it is lost.  To leftist the trouble begins when you try and withdraw this "saved" water from your water savings account. The political left hates both dams and the water stored behind them because these structures and the "saved" water benefits humans. You could say that leftist want to spend your money but save every drop of "their" water.  rolleyes

The Yow-Yow over water in the West now is over the use their water resource is put to.  The Political Left is much more interested in damning humans than building dams.  There is no long term shortage of water, the rain still falls and the snow still melts, there is just not always enough rain fall and/or snow melt in every place to meet every need and there never was.  If Michigan is ever in the possession to sell water to California I hope the tree huggers start hollering, "NO, look at all the history this water has seen!!" 

Personification is the sign of a weak mind as well as a weak argument.  But personification does enable the left to get all teary eyed and touchy feely over inanimate objects like rocks.  I had hoped that you could do better than this Blue.  The water under the Mackinaw Bridge can not see the history going on around it any better that the trees in Oregon can recite the Gettysburg Address.  In my humble opinion I feel this is why the left is against drilling for oil.  They just can't get over how much history a barrel of oil has seen.  lau

BYW, a few decades ago there was a movement afoot in Congress to reverse the flow of the Red River of the South, all the way from the Mississippi River back to LA in Kalifornia.  The Texans, Arkansans, Okies, Cajuns and others were not easy marks like the people who once lived and farmed in the Owens Valley were.  Never once was the argument "Think about all the history the water in the Red River has seen" used to defeat this proposal.   
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2013, 04:02:09 PM »

....
I spend my time in the midwest, where we have massive aquifers that had millions to billions of gallons pulled from them in just 1 summer of drought. It's kind of basic common sense and a little bit of understanding of how water works to realize it is actually a finite resource. Even though there's the same amount of water in the world's system, it's not helpful when more places are suffering from droughts, and others are flooding with unusable water....

Seventy percent (70%) of the Earth’s surface is covered by water so while water is definitely (we think) a finite resource, water is definitely a super abundant resource.

The following is a true story that shows the difference between sound logic and touchy feely emotion!

Your post reminds me of a distraught or maybe it was a 'dis-droughted' Texan I almost came to blows with about 20 years ago.  I was watching the TV news in a coffee shop when a Texan came on the tube ruing the fact that his water front Mac-Mansion home was under 24 feet of flood water. 

"The water hasn't been this high in 30 years” he wailed.  After the flood segment went off I was asked by a fellow patron if I though the Texan deserved Federal Disaster aid. 

“Not a penny,”  I replied, he built his home on the creek bank and he knew the water was this high in the past, any fool should know that sooner of later that the creek is going to flood that deep again.”

I felt a tap on my shoulder and on turning around I saw a man sitting behind me who didn't look happy.  "You are a fine one to talk" he began, "Your living here in the Tennessee Valley with all the things that the government has done for you to prevent floods!"  Being an old Boy Scout and believing that one should always “be prepared” I stood up from my seat and turned around.

"If I give you the same deal that TVA and the Federal Government gave me and the people living in the Tennessee Valley” I began, “Will you take that deal and be happy?"  The Texan said, "Yes I will!"

"Then go back home to Texas” I replied, “And as soon as the flood waters subside get everything you can salvage out of your home and then get your butt off the land!"

"Why," the perplexed Texan asked?

"Because the government is going to come in and bulldoze your house into the landscape them they'll build a dam and your land and home sight will be flooded 24-7-365 not just once every 30 years or so!"

"Good point," replied the Texan.

luving honey, your paragraph above is not an example of basic common sense or even a little bit of understanding about how water works!  Your post is touchy feely emotion, pure and simple.  Are you able now to understand what logic is now and how logic differs from emotion?  If you still don’t get it re-read my reply again, all over, one more time.

FYI, water always flows to and collects in the lowest point, no exceptions.  If your curious, this fact is why the lakes were you live in Central Wisconsin are full of water!!  Water can not be compressed or bailed like hay or cotton and water also cannot be concentrated like OJ, or dehydrated like Wisconsin milk and then stored in a warehouse until needed.  Read the directions on the next box of dehydrated H2O you find at Whole Foods and see if it says, “Add water and stir.”   grin  Besides, flood water is not "unusable water," as you say it is.  Flood water is SURPLUS or UN-NEEDED at the present time and/or place water.  Your understanding about the properties of water is damaged by your emotional response.
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melliferal
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2013, 04:22:18 PM »


Besides, flood water is not "unusable water," as you say it is.  Flood water is SURPLUS or UN-NEEDED at the present time and/or place water.  Your understanding about the properties of water is damaged by your emotional response.

This is a distinction without a difference.  Flood water cannot be used for any deliberate purpose; it is dangerous, unpredictable, and invariably contaminated.  It must take another complete turn through the water cycle before it becomes useable again.
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2013, 04:47:32 PM »

Quote
This is a distinction without a difference.  Flood water cannot be used for any deliberate purpose; it is dangerous, unpredictable, and invariably contaminated.  It must take another complete turn through the water cycle before it becomes useable again.

that might be true, but not sure what it has to do with the claim that we are using up water and are going to run out?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2013, 10:05:23 PM »

...
Flood water cannot be used for any deliberate purpose;

If flood waters are surplus to your needs then you are not missing out on water.  You merely have an over abundance.

Every drop of water in every lake and reservoir on the planet is flood water that has been coaxed some how to pull off its coat and stay a spell. catch chick
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luvin honey
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2013, 09:14:00 AM »

...
Flood water cannot be used for any deliberate purpose;

If flood waters are surplus to your needs then you are not missing out on water.  You merely have an over abundance.
Good luck bathing in or drinking floodwater. And I'd like to know how you are going to reclaim it from the oceans. A lot of our flooding ends up in the Mississippi, then the ocean. Takes an awful lot of chemicals and pollution along with it. Perhaps you've heard of the dead zone where it drains?
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2013, 10:04:43 AM »

you guys do know that sea water is still water?  there are 1000's of desalinization plants around the world turning sea water into drinking water.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2013, 10:11:27 AM »

""A lot of our flooding ends up in the Mississippi, then the ocean.""

And a lot of it remains behind the dams and in the lakes, where it settles and becomes clear, waiting to be used. There are about 4 million people drinking Mississippi river water daily, in the Quad Cities of Il. and Ia. alone. They don't seem to mind having those reservoirs there. How many more upstream and downstream are doing the same?

Kathy, don't forget to include the largest desalinization plant of all. The sun and clouds. It all gets recycled as clean water.
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2013, 11:01:34 AM »

Quote
This is a distinction without a difference.  Flood water cannot be used for any deliberate purpose; it is dangerous, unpredictable, and invariably contaminated.  It must take another complete turn through the water cycle before it becomes useable again.

that might be true, but not sure what it has to do with the claim that we are using up water and are going to run out?

Water can't leave the planet, so the Earth itself will never "run out".  However, specific areas can "run out" for a greater or lesser period of time for a number of reasons, such as

1. Taking of water from a location faster than natural processes return it

2. Natural processes changing so that less water enters an area on a yearly basis

3. A source of pollution which continuously contaminates a water source, including any new water that natural processes bring to a location

4.  A sudden catastrophic event that acutely depletes or toxifies a water source.
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2013, 11:07:57 AM »

you guys do know that sea water is still water?  there are 1000's of desalinization plants around the world turning sea water into drinking water.

It is rare that these coastal cities claim to have a water problem.  It's arid and plains regions, isolated from oceans and large river systems, that are at risk of "running out".  They rely on isolated lakes and underground aquifers, which need to be filled by rain.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2013, 12:07:15 PM »

you guys do know that sea water is still water?  there are 1000's of desalinization plants around the world turning sea water into drinking water.
Doesn't sound like a very energy or cost efficient process to me: "Large-scale desalination typically uses large amounts of energy and specialized, expensive infrastructure, making it more expensive than fresh water from conventional sources, such as rivers or groundwater.[3]" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination. I'd still rather not waste it than rely on processes such as this, then shipping of said water across the country. I believe that future wars will be fought over potable water.

Kingbee, you apparently have issues if you claim my paragraph "I spend my time in the midwest, where we have massive aquifers that had millions to billions of gallons pulled from them in just 1 summer of drought. It's kind of basic common sense and a little bit of understanding of how water works to realize it is actually a finite resource. Even though there's the same amount of water in the world's system, it's not helpful when more places are suffering from droughts, and others are flooding with unusable water...." is in your words "is not an example of basic common sense or even a little bit of understanding about how water works!  Your post is touchy feely emotion, pure and simple.  Are you able now to understand what logic is now and how logic differs from emotion?"

If you think my explanation of the fact that aquifers can lower during times of intense use without replenishment is "touchy feely emotion," we apparently cannot communicate whatsoever.

Your first sentence "Seventy percent (70%) of the Earth’s surface is covered by water so while water is definitely (we think) a finite resource, water is definitely a super abundant resource." is so childish in its logic that it's hard to even know what to say.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2013, 12:47:25 PM »

Quote
"Large-scale desalination typically uses large amounts of energy and specialized, expensive infrastructure, making it more expensive than fresh water from conventional sources

this is true, but people live in places now that 100 years or so ago they could not have lived.  why?  because we figured out ways to get water to them (and AC).  people are willing to pay for what is important to them.  people are willing to sell what others think is important and are willing to pay for.

Quote
Your first sentence "Seventy percent (70%) of the Earth’s surface is covered by water so while water is definitely (we think) a finite resource, water is definitely a super abundant resource." is so childish in its logic that it's hard to even know what to say.

it is an accurate statement.  it is up to man to figure out ways to make it useable, but it's there for the taking if they do.


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2013, 04:19:04 PM »

...

3. A source of pollution which continuously contaminates a water source, including any new water that natural processes bring to a location

4.  A sudden catastrophic event that acutely depletes or toxifies a water source.

I shall start at the bottom and go up.

Number 4.  A sudden catastrophic event that acutely depletes a water source can be nothing worse than a Sunny day.  Like wise an event that 'toxifies' a water source can be nothing any more sinister than a Spring shower. 

Aren't we being a little bit reactionary here?  Because in your opinion whether it rains or whether the Sun shines, it still means that we are experiences a catastrophic event.  Therefore we are always experiencing a catastrophic event connected to water or to the absence thereof.  So pray tell us then, how are we to decide when to mobilize the National Guard or whether it is better for the NG to smear our bodies down with coco butter, or else hand everyone a parasol and a dry towel?

For a species that spends the first 9 months of our lives in our mothers' womb surrounded by and suspended in water, we humans sure seem to have become hydrophobic haven't we?

Number 3.
"3. A source of pollution which continuously contaminates a water source, including any new water that natural processes bring to a location"

What are we speaking about here?  Do you mean fish feces, lime, calcium chloride or some other thing in the water, like the current which is a natural process needed to bring us more water?  Perhaps you are also speaking about the mud, sand, dirt, and other errant particles of the Earth's crust that rain water and other natural processes deposits in our lakes, rivers and streams?  Did you also mean to single out toxins like iron, sulfur, copper, zinc, selenium, and sodium.  If you did remember that these minerals are necessary for human life and they are even contained in vitamin and mineral supplements marketed to children. 

Water is maybe the only universal solvent.  If this were not so then explain how 40 or more minerals are detectable in a single sample of sea water.  Given enough time water is capable of dissolving almost anything, including iron, concrete, granite, lead, and as far as I know Plutonium.  Since all of these substances are either found in nature or else their component parts are found in nature, any water above, on, or below the surface of the Earth is capable of dissolving any substance that it comes in contact with and then transporting that substance to your kitchen tap.   

Do I recommend that you gulp down the first beaker of nature water that you stumble across?  Absolutely not!!!  That is way we have municipal or private water delivery systems.  Do these water delivery systems remove all contaminants?  NO!  However they are able to reduce any errant bits of the Earth's crust, plus most stray fecal matter that is the result of sustainable agricultural to a safe enough (hopefully) level for us to drink.  However, any water is still 1,000s of times better than no water.   
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iddee
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2013, 05:03:49 PM »

""Your first sentence "Seventy percent (70%) of the Earth’s surface is covered by water so while water is definitely (we think) a finite resource, water is definitely a super abundant resource." is so childish in its logic that it's hard to even know what to say.""

So there should be plenty of water for everyone whether man handles it properly or not? Is that what you are saying??

Sounds like the liberal thought that if a parent sells their food stamps and buys booze, we should just give them more food stamps because the kids are still hungry.

Typical liberal thinking, and you actually have the gall to use the word logic in your post.

I'm amazed.
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2013, 05:24:58 PM »

Number 4.  A sudden catastrophic event that acutely depletes a water source can be nothing worse than a Sunny day.  Like wise an event that 'toxifies' a water source can be nothing any more sinister than a Spring shower.  

Obviously not.  A sudden catastrophic event might describe the bursting of a dam, or a hurricane or other extreme weather event.  

Aren't we being a little bit reactionary here?  Because in your opinion whether it rains or whether the Sun shines, it still means that we are experiences a catastrophic event.  

That is not my opinion; it's a special definition you've assigned to the words I've used in order to make them easier to argue against.  Nowhere else aside from your response have I ever heard someone suggest that a term like "sudden catastrophic event" could apply to a "sunny day".  

For a species that spends the first 9 months of our lives in our mothers' womb surrounded by and suspended in water, we humans sure seem to have become hydrophobic haven't we?

Pointless and irrelevant.  More people die yearly in flooding events than from any other natural severe weather occurrence.  There is a good reason to be afraid of "surplus water".

Number 3.
"3. A source of pollution which continuously contaminates a water source, including any new water that natural processes bring to a location"

What are we speaking about here?  Do you mean fish feces, lime, calcium chloride or some other thing in the water, like the current which is a natural process needed to bring us more water?  Perhaps you are also speaking about the mud, sand, dirt, and other errant particles of the Earth's crust that rain water and other natural processes deposits in our lakes, rivers and streams?  Did you also mean to single out toxins like iron, sulfur, copper, zinc, selenium, and sodium.  If you did remember that these minerals are necessary for human life and they are even contained in vitamin and mineral supplements marketed to children.

Pollution is any substance that renders water unhealthy and unusable for consumption or other use.  It can be the result of natural or artificial processes, or some combination of these.

It is true that many elements that could be considered pollutants are necessary for life.  But it's ultimately meaningless; potassium is required for life, nonetheless too much of it will give you a heart attack.  100% oxygen is poisonous, and drinking too much potable water will cause an overdilution of electrolyte in your body, killing you.

Water is maybe the only universal solvent.  If this were not so then explain how 40 or more minerals are detectable in a single sample of sea water.  Given enough time water is capable of dissolving almost anything, including iron, concrete, granite, lead, and as far as I know Plutonium.  Since all of these substances are either found in nature or else their component parts are found in nature, any water above, on, or below the surface of the Earth is capable of dissolving any substance that it comes in contact with and then transporting that substance to your kitchen tap.    

Do I recommend that you gulp down the first beaker of nature water that you stumble across?  Absolutely not!!!  That is way we have municipal or private water delivery systems.  Do these water delivery systems remove all contaminants?  NO!  However they are able to reduce any errant bits of the Earth's crust, plus most stray fecal matter that is the result of sustainable agricultural to a safe enough (hopefully) level for us to drink.  However, any water is still 1,000s of times better than no water.

This is not true either.  Polluted water can result in death just as easily as none; or even more easily if the lack of fresh water could be abated or relieved.  For instance, there was no municipal water service in New Orleans during the aftermath of Katrina and many survived; yet, to ingest the chemical-and-bacteria infused floodwater that filled the streets would've meant certain death.  In that case it was best to not drink any water at all until known good water could be brought in from elsewhere.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2013, 01:23:01 PM »

""Your first sentence "Seventy percent (70%) of the Earth’s surface is covered by water so while water is definitely (we think) a finite resource, water is definitely a super abundant resource." is so childish in its logic that it's hard to even know what to say.""

So there should be plenty of water for everyone whether man handles it properly or not? Is that what you are saying??

Sounds like the liberal thought that if a parent sells their food stamps and buys booze, we should just give them more food stamps because the kids are still hungry.

Typical liberal thinking, and you actually have the gall to use the word logic in your post.

I'm amazed.

It's hard to figure out what you're actually saying or asking, but my comment is simple. Even though 70% of the earth is covered with water, MOST of it is not usable. Or very expensive/labor intensive to make usable. In case you didn't notice, KINGBEE made the original comment. I'm all for reducing water use. Hah! I get it--You think I made that comment and still twist it to fit your "liberal logic" attack. Sorry, iddee, someone on your side said it.
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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2013, 12:49:22 AM »

Aren't we being a little bit reactionary here?  Because in your opinion whether it rains or whether the Sun shines, it still means that we are experiences a catastrophic event.  

That is not my opinion; it's a special definition you've assigned to the words I've used in order to make them easier to argue against.  Nowhere else aside from your response have I ever heard someone suggest that a term like "sudden catastrophic event" could apply to a "sunny day"....

I did not assign any "special" definitions to your words.  Your trying to crawdad if you say I did.  I also had never heard anyone other than yourself allude to a sunny day as a "sudden catastrophic event.  It just seams to me that you go out of your way to find and catalogue "sudden catastrophic events" That is why I questioned you about the meanings you assigned to your words.  What is your definition of a forest fire, isn't that in your opinion also a "sudden catastrophic event on par say with a flood or drought?" 
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« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2013, 07:30:17 PM »

Never say that the folks up there in the 49th state are not a sporting lot.
It seems they will wager on almost any thing.
For those of you who watched the TV reality show "Yukon Men" you may remember that it was filmed at or near the confluence of the Yukon and Tanana Rivers in Alaska.  Tanana, Alaska is not a big place even by Alaskan standards.  However the town or Nenana is further up the Tanana river on the Nenana River is a metropolis with 9 named streets, each one at least one block long and an equal number of avenues.

The reason I mentioned this is because Nenana is for all I can tell the Alaskan equivalent of Vegas or Atlantic City.  Every year since 1917 the Nenana locals hold the Nenana Ice Classic.  No danno, it isn't a hockey tournament but a pool wager, betting on which day and minute the ice covering the Tanana River breaks up.  This years pot is over $300,000.  The records are accurate down to the minute and they are 96 years long.

The Earliest  the ice broke up was on the 20th of April 1940 at 3:27PM. The Latest that the Tanana River ice broke up was on May the 20th 1964 at 11:41AM.  We are dealing with climate variables here but if the ice broke up while I was typing this it still would be the 6th latest break up on record.
Since the Tanana River ice is still very solid and as thick as it was in January, The Nenana Ice Classic on the Tanana River is on track for its latest ice out date ever.

Dang Global Warming!

Tanana River Breakup 2009

Ice Classic kicks off with Tripod raising

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:11:53 PM by kingbee » Logged
kingbee
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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2013, 03:16:29 PM »

The ice is still intact.  another 3 or 4 days and there will be a new record for the longest amount of time that the Tanana river has been ice bound.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/nenana-ice-closing-in-on-first-place/#comment-226535
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:28:59 PM by kingbee » Logged
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