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Author Topic: loony tree hugging leftist  (Read 8556 times)
Moots
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2013, 11:54:14 AM »

I don’t suppose there should be any attempt to “conserve” water in the West for future generations either?  Why should y’all have your toilets limited to 2 gallons a flush?  That really sounds like an infringement on your "rights" doesn't it?  Why not just let the West flush as much water as they want?  

I’m sure Michigan would be happy to sell you fresh water for say, $1000 a barrel when yours is all gone. grin

Another great example of the liberal mindset and belief that there's no problem that some government regulation can't fix.

Want to save water, EASY, pass a law that mandates companies sell toilets that use 2/3 as much water to flush.  Only problem is, they work about 1/2 as good....So, people adapt and figure out you have to flush the toilet twice, actually using more water than they did with the original design, making the problem worse, not better!  grin

But hey, the liberals get that warm fuzzy feeling that they're doing something!  Smiley
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2013, 12:06:16 PM »

Quote
Quote
Are you kidding? Just because YOU don't live in that tree doesn't mean it doesn't provide habitat and food for many other species. It's very logical to realize that humans are interconnected to many other species on the planet, probably most of which relationships we don't understand at all.

then no tree should ever be cut.  no ground turned.  no grass mowed.  do you know how many voles i kill every time i whack down my fields....my god.  the blood on my hands...er, blades.

our exchange.

your conclusion.

Quote
Then by your "logic," every blade of grass should be cut, all earth turned, all trees cut. Neither extreme makes much sense.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BlueBee
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2013, 12:10:05 PM »

Heck Moots, why not just let everybody in Arizona use as much water as they want to turn the desert into a lush lawn?  You do realize what the DEFINITION of a “desert” is, right?  LOL, and the conservatives think they’re the “logical” ones. lau   

Water in the West is kind of like Dollars in Washington.  If more is going out than coming in, you’re eventually going to have a problem!  At least with dollars you can always print more to make up for the deficit.  With water you’re screwed.  You can’t simply make more.  Once the aquifers are drained, the land subsides and crushes future capacity, so it’s permanent damage.  But hey, if Moots needs 10 gallons a flush, then so be it. Smiley

Have you even seen the new toilets lately Moots?  They have multiple buttons for various flows.
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2013, 12:14:40 PM »

we don't lose water.  we have a closed system.  it's somewhere.  except for what they take up to the space station.....

the key is reclamation.  we may need to consider some kind of Dune system eventually since the population grows and people have a lot of water in them.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2013, 12:30:31 PM »

Heck Moots, why not just let everybody in Arizona use as much water as they want to turn the desert into a lush lawn?  You do realize what the DEFINITION of a “desert” is, right?  LOL, and the conservatives think they’re the “logical” ones. lau   

Water in the West is kind of like Dollars in Washington.  If more is going out than coming in, you’re eventually going to have a problem!  At least with dollars you can always print more to make up for the deficit.  With water you’re screwed.  You can’t simply make more.  Once the aquifers are drained, the land subsides and crushes future capacity, so it’s permanent damage.  But hey, if Moots needs 10 gallons a flush, then so be it. Smiley

Have you even seen the new toilets lately Moots?  They have multiple buttons for various flows.


Blue,
I just love your priorities...

You're a cheerleader for a President that's added 7 TRILLION dollars to the national debt and has overseen 9.5 Million people leave the workforce but what keeps you up at night is if some yet to be born kid, that may or may not live out west, is going to have enough water to flush his government mandated and regulated toilet 30 years from now! WOW!!!

But, what should I expect from someone with a "short on dollars".....No Problem! "You can just print more of those" mentality!

I'm not saying the problem doesn't need to be addressed, I'm just saying some feel good, knee jerk, reactionary government regulation, that may or may not actually help the problem, isn't always the answer. 
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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BlueBee
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2013, 12:44:12 PM »

Moots, that 7 Trillion in debt can be zeroed out over night if/when the political machine has the will to do it, it’s just paper.  It’s done all the time in business; it’s called re-organization under the bankruptcy laws.  Water deficits can’t be zeroed out.  Protecting natural resources is called RESPONSIBILITY moots.  I thought that was a word the conservatives like to apply to themselves.  Guess not. 

Using your logic, I guess there was no purpose in upgrading those sea walls around New Orleans either, right?  Heck, if we're not around in 30 years, does it matter?
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luvin honey
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2013, 01:00:53 PM »

we don't lose water.  we have a closed system.  it's somewhere.  except for what they take up to the space station.....

the key is reclamation.  we may need to consider some kind of Dune system eventually since the population grows and people have a lot of water in them.
But is it clean? Once it comes out of the water table (clean and potable), it can end up in many different places (polluted and nonpotable).
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luvin honey
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2013, 01:01:40 PM »

I don’t suppose there should be any attempt to “conserve” water in the West for future generations either?  Why should y’all have your toilets limited to 2 gallons a flush?  That really sounds like an infringement on your "rights" doesn't it?  Why not just let the West flush as much water as they want?  

I’m sure Michigan would be happy to sell you fresh water for say, $1000 a barrel when yours is all gone. grin
What? You don't believe the absolute "right" to golf courses and agriculture in a desert?
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2013, 01:05:55 PM »

Quote
it can end up in many different places (polluted and nonpotable).

you must not spend much time in Vegas.  it's amazing what you can do with good water reclamation programs!   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2013, 01:08:52 PM »

Quote
it can end up in many different places (polluted and nonpotable).

you must not spend much time in Vegas.  it's amazing what you can do with good water reclamation programs!   evil
Thankfully, no.

I spend my time in the midwest, where we have massive aquifers that had millions to billions of gallons pulled from them in just 1 summer of drought. It's kind of basic common sense and a little bit of understanding of how water works to realize it is actually a finite resource. Even though there's the same amount of water in the world's system, it's not helpful when more places are suffering from droughts, and others are flooding with unusable water.

But, yes, water reclamation would be a great idea. So would not wasting it in the first place.
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The pedigree of honey
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Moots
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2013, 01:48:28 PM »

Moots, that 7 Trillion in debt can be zeroed out over night if/when the political machine has the will to do it, it’s just paper.  It’s done all the time in business; it’s called re-organization under the bankruptcy laws. 


WOW Blue...Simply WOW!  Doesn't happen often, but I'm SPEECHLESS!  Are you really naive and clueless enough to believe this? You don't understand the difference between a company going bankrupt and a COUNTRY!  You know, the country, who's full faith and credit, gives that "just paper" value!

Using  that abusive gross simplification of logic, why don't you just have the all powerful "political machine" pass a law saying it's illegal to flush any toilet out west....and magically, the water shortage problem will be fixed.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2013, 02:53:03 PM »

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It's kind of basic common sense and a little bit of understanding of how water works to realize it is actually a finite resource

so is anything under the right circumstances.  in theory, you could have so many people on earth that they could use all the air!

wouldn't it be nice if the left were as concerned with the conservation of tax dollars, as with the conservation of trees and water?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2013, 02:58:09 PM »

Pretty much everyone wants to conserve tax dollars. We all just have different places we don't and do want taxes to go.
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The pedigree of honey
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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2013, 10:59:45 PM »

Bluebee......Obviously you have never been on the other side of bankruptcy, I have been stiffed several times.....For your information..in bankruptcy someone loses that money.  If I provide you a service, you don't pay me and go bankrupt....I AM OUT THE MONEY...YOU STILL GOT THE SERVICE...FREE!!!   I got, you-know-what-ed and did not even get to enjoy it....THANKS!!
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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2013, 12:43:45 AM »

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We all just have different places we don't and do want taxes to go

when i comes to your state, you can have all the wants you want.  when it comes to the feds, they need to stay to the things they are mandated to do.

even if there are programs you think are needed, you can't honestly tell me that you think the government spends money wisely and well.  we have written the government a blank check because someone needs to do something! and it's oh so much easier to just let the feds do it...until you start seeing trillions in debt and the same problems still exist.
at some point, you'd think that most everyone would get a clue that what we are doing is not working.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2013, 02:38:30 AM »

I’ve lost money once due to a bankruptcy.  There is risk in investing; it’s the nature of the game.  Nobody wins 100% of the time.  I owned stock in the company that went under so I was totally wiped out.  Normally the bond holders get something, 10 or 50 cents on the dollar.  Honestly unless it is total fraud (like Enron, WorldCom, PFG, etc), there are pretty good signs before an entity goes under.  Things like their Bond ratings go to Junk, the company gets burdened with excessive debt (and interest payments), the stock starts to tank, profits go to zip, and the investment houses pile on with “sell sell sell” as they short the stock.

Can anybody here look at the US debt clock and honestly think our system is solvent?  http://www.usdebtclock.org/

The government finances make the Old General Motors look like the financial whiz kids of Goldman Sachs.  This wasn’t all created by Obama, it’s been going on for decades.  If you’re “investing” in an entity with unfunded liabilities of 123 TRILLION dollars, then you deserve to lose money if and when it goes bankrupt or gets re-organized.  There an old saying that would be prudent to heed:  Buyer beware!  Do your homework.
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Moots
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2013, 05:11:56 AM »

Blue,
Are you kidding me?  Maybe you've stayed up too late...You're so all over the map, I'm not even sure where to start.

First, there's a huge difference between someone making a choice to "invest" in a company and place their capital at risk for the chance of finanacial gain...Compared to someone engaging in a business transaction.  The later is a contract, I'll provide you with a specified product or service and you agree to pay for that product or service. Then suddenly through the art of bankruptcy, even though I've fufilled my obligation, I'm left holding the bag.  I fully understand that in business bankruptcy may be a necessary evil sometimes...However, it's not the beautiful "fix all" magic trick that you tend to imply it is....

Second, The United States isn't some company that I've chosen to buy stock in, so it's somehow on me, and I should have had a buyer beware mindset.  It's not like I have a choice to get paid in something other than US dollars...It's not GM, it's not Enron, etc. etc.  It's THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA we're talking about here!

Lastly, your right Obama isn't the only President to grow the National Debt, I never implied that he was!  He's just done it at a record setting pace.  No Presidnet before Obama had ever run a Trillion dollar deficit.  Obama has done it in EVERY year of his Presidency!

Don't take my word on it, Listen to Obama in his own words on what he thinks about President's adding to the National Dept.
Obama on National Debt

He blast President Bush for adding over 4 Trillion in 8 years, yet he's well on pace to add over double that in his two terms.  But hey Blue, no big deal, RIGHT?  I mean according to you, it's "just paper" RIGHT!  huh
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 10:18:32 AM by Moots » Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2013, 09:37:12 AM »

Quote
If you’re “investing” in an entity with unfunded liabilities of 123 TRILLION dollars, then you deserve to lose money if and when it goes bankrupt or gets re-organized.

Moots nailed most of it.  one other thing is that my "investment", if you are talking about taxes, is not voluntary and i have no option to withdraw my funds. 
the investment that really counts is the generations of blood, sweat, and lives, invested in making this country what it was.  there is no other place like it, and when it's gone, there is no other country waiting to take it's "customers" and provide the missing services.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2013, 10:46:21 AM »

If some of you actually had experience in the markets and capitalism, you might better understand the situation.  When a business (or government) needs to raise cash, they sell bonds.  Those bonds are rated by agencies like S&P.  If the rating agencies believe a business is a sound solvent business then their bonds are rated as “investment” grade and investors can be relatively sure those companies won’t go bankrupt and WILL pay you back (plus interest).  If the business is risky, they get a rating of “junk”.  A junk bond pays a much higher yield than an investment bond, BECAUSE of the higher risk of them defaulting on the bond.  So again, as an investor, you have a WARNING before you invest in a business.  If you choose to ignore that warning, then you really have no right to complain foul if they default on you and you lose money.  You had BEEN warned. 

That said, many companies with junk bonds do NOT default and investors can make a very healthy return.  Again, it’s risk vs reward.  If you want a “sure bet” you don’t usually get much of a return.  If you want to gamble, you might do better, or you might lose it all.

Finally, taxes are not an “investment”!     
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kathyp
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« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2013, 11:51:40 AM »

if you are trying to make the argument "investor beware" then perhaps you'd explain how a citizen can extract themselves from a failing country....other than leaving.  perhaps you can explain how we can not be invested in a failing country?

i agree that taxes are not an investment.  they are, for the most part, theft.  that said, they are not optional, so there is no way to divest by way of taking my money out of the country.

this government is selling, buying, and printing.  kind of puts the lie to "the economy is improving" doesn't it?  it's also the explanation for the stock market.  this ought to scare the crap out of investors.  real investors....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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