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Author Topic: URGENT - important petition to sign re pesticides  (Read 1170 times)
ozebee
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« on: April 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM »

Bees around the world are dying off and Europe’s food watchdog just said certain pesticides are part of the problem. We’ve got just days before key meetings -- let’s get a 3-million-person swarm to save the bees. Click to take urgent action now:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/hours_to_save_the_bees_new/?bmyTAeb&v=24296

Quietly, globally, billions of bees are dying, threatening our crops and food. But in days the European Union could move to ban the most poisonous pesticides, and pave the way to a global ban that would save bees from extinction.

Four EU countries have begun banning these poisons, and some bee populations are already recovering. The official European food safety watchdog has already stated that certain pesticides are fatally harming bees. Now legal experts and European politicians are calling for an immediate ban. But Bayer and other giant pesticide producers are lobbying hard to keep them on the market. If we build a huge swarm of public outrage now, we can push European Agriculture ministers to put our health and our environment before the profit of a few.

We know our voices count! Last year, our 1.2 million strong petition forced US authorities to open a formal consultation on pesticides -- now if we reach 3 million, we can persuade the EU to get rid of these crazy poisons and pave the way for a ban worldwide. Sign the urgent petition and send this to everyone -- Avaaz and bee keepers will deliver our message to the meeting in Brussels:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/hours_to_save_the_bees_new/?bmyTAeb&v=24296
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hjon71
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »

Done.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 07:58:11 PM »

which do you want banned.  all pesticides could kill bees.  shall we stop using all of them?  what if you ban these and that ban doesn't work.  what gets banned next? 

don't get me wrong.  i have no problem going after things that we can prove are a problem, but most of the time it's more like the DDT crap and it's about emotion rather than science.

food will still get pollinated even without honey bees.  if all the crops are eaten by pests, we will starve.  i want to be pretty darn sure of what i'm banning before i ban it.  i don't want to be like some 3rd world hell hole, watching from the side of the field as my crops are stripped.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
PLAN-B
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 09:08:13 PM »

I too would like to err on the side of caution...  Question Ozebee; Do you treat your bees in any form if they are not up to par? i.e. Mites etc... I haven't had to yet and am not saying i wouldn't. Although i would prefer not to, but if my bees had a severe problem and a little chemical could rid them of their problem i might be so inclined to use it. As would i, if i had a multi-million crop about to be lost... Not saying i wouldn't sign the partition, but wouldn't rush to judgement. Probably do a little homework of my own first...Thanks for bringing up the subject though  Smiley
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Marshall
tjc1
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 10:10:11 PM »

Well, the question is, how much proof do you need, and how long do you wait? Is 80% sure enough? 90%? Or does it have to be 100% after 10 years of studies? The European studies from what I have read showed plenty of smoking gun. The USDA wants to wait (on the advice - and pressure - of the agrichemical industry) to do several more years of studies. You have to weigh the potential damage due to inaction against the benefits - and the dangers - of using these potent chemicals that act systemically and get deep into the ecosystem. Banning this class of pesticides does not mean all the crops will be eaten. By the same token, not all crops will be pollinated if there are no honeybees - I'm sorry, but both of those statements saying the opposite are exaggerations. And I have to ask, how was the DDT situation about emotion and not science? The connection to weakened egg shells in birds of prey was pretty watertight from my understanding, just for one example. I, too, believe in looking at the science, but there is a lot of politics and money involved too, that has often, historically, gotten in the way of the real science. I also believe in being prudent in the face of potential harm - the burden of proof should be on the manufacturers of such dangerous products to show that they are safe, rather than the govt. - or private citizens - having to prove they are harmful.
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10framer
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 11:06:47 PM »

how much proof?  i didn't see any in that link, just a petition by someone that says thing like "four countries" and "already recovering".  i don't see any studies referenced or anything saying which four countries the bee populations are "coming back" in. 
i see almost three million armchair activists that believe anything that anyone tells them, especially if it goes after big business because that's the cool thing to do these days.  i'm all for banning them when someone shows me some hard unbiased data.
who, other than someone in the migratory pollination business, can show me where they have taken any losses due to neonicotinoids?  i'm in the heart of the georgia surrounded by soybean and cotton fields which i'm sure are round up ready and treated with neonicotinoids.  none of the guys on this forum near my area seem to be having the massive die offs i keep hearing about and none of the beekeepers i know in the area can tell me about any.
fact is, most beekeepers are dumping pesticides (some illegally) directly into their hives to control mites and beetles.  that's ok though, right?
show me the studies instead of the claims.  one of these threads pops up every few days but i never see any hard proof.
ddt was some bad stuff and it made it's way well into the food chain.  well, combat is making its way directly into your honey when you put it into your hives.  i'm sure that doesn't stop people from selling their "natural honey" at a premium.
an awful lot of people live in an awful convenient reality.   
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 11:30:59 PM »

Quote
- I'm sorry, but both of those statements saying the opposite are exaggerations. And I have to ask, how was the DDT situation about emotion and not science? The connection to weakened egg shells in birds of prey was pretty watertight from my understanding,

then you understand wrong, which  makes my point, i think.  to this day, there is no scientific link between DDT and the weakened egg shells.  there are, however, some disease in birds that cause just such things.  because of a nutty tree huggers book, millions died of malaria, while 1st worlders wept for birds.

so, how much proof?  more than we have.  any insecticide will kill bees.  that does not mean that insecticides are causing CCD. CCD predates insecticides.  bring me more.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 11:35:47 PM »

and i don't mean to be attacking good intentions, but good intentions without evidence might be one of the most dangerous things in the world.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
ralittlefield
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 07:40:34 AM »

to this day, there is no scientific link between DDT and the weakened egg shells.  there are, however, some disease in birds that cause just such things.  because of a nutty tree huggers book, millions died of malaria, while 1st worlders wept for birds.

Unintended consequences will bite you in the butt every time!
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Ralph Littlefield
JackM
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2013, 08:18:26 AM »

Vermin are killed with pesticide
plants are killed with herbicide.

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“I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast” – Ronald Reagan
D Coates
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 09:38:17 AM »

No way am I signing that.

and i don't mean to be attacking good intentions, but good intentions without evidence might be one of the most dangerous things in the world.......

Exactly, the road to "heck" is paved with good intentions.
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PLAN-B
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 10:14:12 AM »

and i don't mean to be attacking good intentions, but good intentions without evidence might be one of the most dangerous things in the world.......

The road to hell is paved with good intentions... I Am not much of a band wagon type either. Show me the unbiased data that proves such claims and i'm in...
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Marshall
tjc1
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 09:58:10 PM »

Quote
- I'm sorry, but both of those statements saying the opposite are exaggerations. And I have to ask, how was the DDT situation about emotion and not science? The connection to weakened egg shells in birds of prey was pretty watertight from my understanding,

then you understand wrong, which  makes my point, i think.  to this day, there is no scientific link between DDT and the weakened egg shells.  there are, however, some disease in birds that cause just such things.  because of a nutty tree huggers book, millions died of malaria, while 1st worlders wept for birds.

so, how much proof?  more than we have.  any insecticide will kill bees.  that does not mean that insecticides are causing CCD. CCD predates insecticides.  bring me more.

From Wikepedia

Effects on wildlife and eggshell thinning

<DDT is toxic to a wide range of living organisms, including marine animals such as crayfish, daphnids, sea shrimp and many species of fish. It is less toxic to mammals, but may be moderately toxic to some amphibian species, especially in the larval stage. DDT, through its metabolite DDE, caused eggshell thinning and resulted in severe population declines in multiple North American and European bird of prey species.[43] Eggshell thinning lowers the reproductive rate of certain bird species by causing egg breakage and embryo deaths. DDE related eggshell thinning is considered a major reason for the decline of the bald eagle,[8] brown pelican,[44] peregrine falcon, and osprey.[1] However, different groups of birds vary greatly in their sensitivity to these chemicals.[2] Birds of prey, waterfowl, and song birds are more susceptible to eggshell thinning than chickens and related species, and DDE appears to be more potent than DDT.[1] Even in 2010, more than forty years after the U.S. ban, California condors which feed on sea lions at Big Sur which in turn feed in the Palos Verdes Shelf area of the Montrose Chemical Superfund site seemed to be having continued thin-shell problems. Scientists with the Ventana Wildlife Society and others are intensifying studies and remediations of the condors' problems.[45]

The biological thinning mechanism is not entirely known, but there is strong evidence that p,p'-DDE inhibits calcium ATPase in the membrane of the shell gland and reduces the transport of calcium carbonate from blood into the eggshell gland. This results in a dose-dependent thickness reduction.[1][46][47][48] There is also evidence that o,p'-DDT disrupts female reproductive tract development, impairing eggshell quality later.[49] Multiple mechanisms may be at work, or different mechanisms may operate in different species.[1] Some studies show that although DDE levels have fallen dramatically, eggshell thickness remains 10–12 percent thinner than before DDT was first used.[50]>

There were those weeping for birds, but we may be weeping for ourselves due to our playing fast and loose with these powerful chemicals -

Developmental toxicity

DDT and DDE, like other organochlorines, have been shown to have xenoestrogenic activity, meaning they are chemically similar enough to estrogens to trigger hormonal responses in animals. This endocrine disrupting activity has been observed in mice and rat toxicological studies, and available epidemiological evidence indicates that these effects may be occurring in humans as a result of DDT exposure. The US Environmental Protection Agency states that DDT exposure damages the reproductive system and reduces reproductive success. These effects may cause developmental and reproductive toxicity:

    A review article in The Lancet states, "research has shown that exposure to DDT at amounts that would be needed in malaria control might cause preterm birth and early weaning ... toxicological evidence shows endocrine-disrupting properties; human data also indicate possible disruption in semen quality, menstruation, gestational length, and duration of lactation."[28]
    Human epidemiological studies suggest that exposure is a risk factor for premature birth and low birth weight, and may harm a mother's ability to breast feed.[61] Some 21st-century researchers argue that these effects may increase infant deaths, offsetting any anti-malarial benefits.[62] A 2008 study, however, failed to confirm the association between exposure and difficulty breastfeeding.[63]
    Several recent studies demonstrate a link between in utero exposure to DDT or DDE and developmental neurotoxicity in humans. For example, a 2006 University of California, Berkeley study suggests that children exposed while in the womb have a greater chance of development problems,[64] and other studies have found that even low levels of DDT or DDE in umbilical cord serum at birth are associated with decreased attention at infancy[65] and decreased cognitive skills at 4 years of age.[66] Similarly, Mexican researchers have linked first trimester DDE exposure to retarded psychomotor development.[67]
    Other studies document decreases in semen quality among men with high exposures (generally from IRS).[68][69][70]
    Studies generally find that high blood DDT or DDE levels do not increase time to pregnancy (TTP.)[71] There is some evidence that the daughters of highly exposed women may have more difficulty getting pregnant (i.e. increased TTP).[72]
    DDT is associated with early pregnancy loss, a type of miscarriage. A prospective cohort study of Chinese textile workers found "a positive, monotonic, exposure-response association between preconception serum total DDT and the risk of subsequent early pregnancy losses."[73] The median serum DDE level of study group was lower than that typically observed in women living in homes sprayed with DDT.[74]
    A Japanese study of congenital hypothyroidism concluded that in utero DDT exposure may affect thyroid hormone levels and "play an important role in the incidence and/or causation of cretinism."[75] Other studies have also found that DDT or DDE interfere with proper thyroid function.[76][77]


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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 11:56:41 PM »

Wikipedia.  why didn't i think to go there for my info?

3 days in a row, i got soft shelled eggs from one of my hens.

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C06/C06Links/www.altgreen.com.au/Chemicals/ddt.html

here's one of many real analysis of the DDT mess.

things like the DDT ban are what  you get when you have a political agenda and you make the science fit the agenda....you know, stuff like global warming...oops...climate change.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
10framer
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2013, 07:31:29 AM »

well, something changed.  i grew up on a river and never saw an osprey or bald eagle til the mid 90's.  now i live two blocks from that same river in a city and i see both in town pretty often.  i'm not going to say it was ddt thinning egg shells but i'd have to say it was quite possibly ddt related considering the timing. 
i'm also prone to believe that global warming is happening but i don't know that it's completely caused by man. 
anybody can post in wikipedia. 
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Highlander
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 09:02:01 AM »

well, something changed.  i grew up on a river and never saw an osprey or bald eagle til the mid 90's.  now i live two blocks from that same river in a city and i see both in town pretty often.  i'm not going to say it was ddt thinning egg shells but i'd have to say it was quite possibly ddt related considering the timing. 
i'm also prone to believe that global warming is happening but i don't know that it's completely caused by man. 
anybody can post in wikipedia. 


I would challenge that with what are the long term migratory patterns for these species that you are referencing.  An example would be the recent discovery of a multi-century migration of species that has Pelicans nesting on the Mississippi River as far up as Le Clair IA.  Some digging revealed that they may rotate annual nesting sites over very long times.  Not saying that other things could not be a possibility just that there is a whole lot we do not know about nature even though we think we have reached the pinnacle and are on the doorstep of becoming Gods...
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Cruachan!

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For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
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kathyp
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2013, 09:26:50 AM »

there's probably a lot of things.  might be that just making it illegal to shoot most of those birds made a big difference.  anyone who raised small animals, or had small animals, considered most of those birds to be pests.  they still are, we just can't shoot them when they make off with our chickens  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
D Coates
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 09:45:18 AM »

stuff like global warming...oops...climate change.....

Wait, it was first "global cooling" in the late 70's.  That didn't go as planned so they rebranded it.  Turns out "Global warming" didn't follow the script either.  Now under "climate change" they can claim any event deemed out of ordinary as proof of their theory (which conveniently coresponds to their political agenda).
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DayValleyDahlias
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2013, 10:09:28 AM »

We live in a very large agricultural area, lot's of strawberries, back in the day, DDT was commonly used.  Many of the fields are near Moss Landing, home to many types of shorebirds, egrets, herrons etc...the population steadily declined after the use of DDT...Since the DDT was stopped, the birds populations has grown beautifully.  I realize that everyone has their own opinions about the usage of pesticides.  I personally use "bee safe" products in my flower farm...
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kathyp
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 10:28:08 AM »

Quote
the population steadily declined after the use of DDT...Since the DDT was stopped, the birds populations has grown beautifully.


if you read that article i posted, it points out that the two are not necessarily related.  in fact, probably not related.  i think that chemicals should be used with care.  we should use our tech to develop the safest chemicals that we can and use them in the safest way.

i do not think that we should make decision, as this one was made, on the basis of some fantasy story written by some tree hugging nut ball.  no science was used to make that decision.  to this day, no science backs it.  many people were made sick a died because of that decision BUT that's ok with the tree hugging nut balls because, after all, man is a blight on the earth!

it's also interesting to note that while we don't use it, other countries have, and do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/11/magazine/11DDT.html?pagewanted=all

this argument, although we don't hear much of it in our little 1st world country, is much like the global warming argument.  it's an argument that keeps other countries from developing...with the promise that we'll give them money as a compensation for the fact that they live in huts a die, so that we don't have to breath pollution, see dead birds, etc. it's a special kind of arrogance that belongs to the leftists.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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