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Author Topic: Where do you draw the line?  (Read 5582 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2013, 11:19:48 AM »

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-MOST of the people I love in life are conservatives. I don't disdain them. I don't disrespect them. Of course, they never talk like the conservatives on this thread talk and don't get up in people's faces, so it's easier to maintain love and respect for them Smiley

you have a problem with having your ideology challenged?

Quote
Or this idea that liberals can't see things on a continuum. This "either/or" "love/hate" thing is something I see from the right all the time. The left is accused of accepting EVERYthing, so where's the hate?

the hate is directed toward us.  we are faced with it every day and it comes from your loving liberals.  they, too, have a problem with having their ideology challenged.  they don't find it so easy to love when someone disagrees with them. 
i will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not seen this because you have imposed a kind of isolation on yourself.  your outside info comes from like minded people and your family doesn't confront you.

not all of us live in your world.  i like to be challenged and i like to challenge others.  people need to think, and you can't think if you are not made to.  liberals (for the most part) don't think.  when they are challenged, they come unglued.  because liberalism is based on emotion, their reaction is an emotional one.  usually nasty. 

liberal leadership is not emotional.  it's quite practical.  they are stateists.  stateism has failed every time it's been done, but it makes the folks at the top rich and powerful.  how to achieve something again, that everyone knows doesn't work?  attract folks with an emotional message of "fairness", open minded love of everything, and....most important, demonize everyone who disagrees as haters.  after all, those stupid god and guns people just don't know any better than to hate those different from themselves. 

more coffee.....


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2013, 11:56:25 AM »

Quote
-MOST of the people I love in life are conservatives. I don't disdain them. I don't disrespect them. Of course, they never talk like the conservatives on this thread talk and don't get up in people's faces, so it's easier to maintain love and respect for them Smiley

you have a problem with having your ideology challenged?

Quote
Or this idea that liberals can't see things on a continuum. This "either/or" "love/hate" thing is something I see from the right all the time. The left is accused of accepting EVERYthing, so where's the hate?

the hate is directed toward us.  we are faced with it every day and it comes from your loving liberals.  they, too, have a problem with having their ideology challenged.  they don't find it so easy to love when someone disagrees with them. 
i will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not seen this because you have imposed a kind of isolation on yourself.  your outside info comes from like minded people and your family doesn't confront you.

not all of us live in your world.  i like to be challenged and i like to challenge others.  people need to think, and you can't think if you are not made to.  liberals (for the most part) don't think.  when they are challenged, they come unglued.  because liberalism is based on emotion, their reaction is an emotional one.  usually nasty. 

liberal leadership is not emotional.  it's quite practical.  they are stateists.  stateism has failed every time it's been done, but it makes the folks at the top rich and powerful.  how to achieve something again, that everyone knows doesn't work?  attract folks with an emotional message of "fairness", open minded love of everything, and....most important, demonize everyone who disagrees as haters.  after all, those stupid god and guns people just don't know any better than to hate those different from themselves. 

more coffee.....



I have no idea what you mean in the first comment. My ideology is challenged constantly. They're simply not nasty about it. "My world", as you put it, is full of conservatives. So I'm not sure what liberal bubble you think I live in, what isolation have I imposed. It's just so condescending. My family DOES discuss politics, but they're a pretty peacable bunch of people who try to have love for all humanity (imagine that, they're not even liberal!) including liberals who disagree with them, so they're very peacable in their discussions.

You claim you like to think, yet every "liberal" thought that comes at you in this forum you so easily dismiss with a generalization or stereotype. Where, I wonder, are your thought processes being expanded and challenged?

You might be surprised at the moral stances I would take. I can disagree with people's choices but still not hate the person. That has nothing to do with being liberal and everything to do with being Christian. From a political standpoint, I simply believe the govt doesn't belong in a lot of areas. If I want my religion and personal beliefs untouched, then I have to acknowledge the same right for others who have different/no religion and different beliefs. If I want freedom of speech for my own self, of course as a reasonable person I have to extend that right to others, even if I hate what they are spewing out.

As for the point of this thread, I don't actually know what's legal or not. I have my own business and so far have not knowingly rubbed shoulders with someone so hateful or repulsive that I wouldn't want to do business with them.
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A clover, any time, to him
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kathyp
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« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2013, 12:04:16 PM »

Quote
You claim you like to think, yet every "liberal" thought that comes at you in this forum you so easily dismiss with a generalization or stereotype. Where, I wonder, are your thought processes being expanded and challenged?

they are constantly challenged, i just haven't found one with enough validity to "expand" my though process.  Wink

i actually think you are more conservative than you know.  you just have the idea that being conservative is a bad thing.  + you have not gotten over the idea that the government is there to help.  those are your stereotypes.  deal with them and you might be a halfway decent conservative...given time...and guidance.  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2013, 12:19:56 PM »

As for the point of this thread, I don't actually know what's legal or not. I have my own business and so far have not knowingly rubbed shoulders with someone so hateful or repulsive that I wouldn't want to do business with them.

luvin honey,
Cutting through all the window dressing, you've nailed the entire point, and it's very simple.

Do you fundamentally believe that if your were to find someone such as you describe that you should have the right to chose not to do business with them.  Or, do you believe the government knows best and should define who you must do business with, regardless of how you may feel.

Again, the issue here is not whether or not the woman's decision to not want to sell to the gay couple is "correct"...The issue is whether or not she has the "right" to make that decision. 

As you elude to, it's not really that difficult to defend the rights of people making decisions that you agree with, it gets a little tricky when you have to start defending the rights of folks you vehemently disagree with....that's the true test.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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luvin honey
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« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2013, 12:07:14 PM »

Moots, I would tend to believe the govt doesn't have a place in decisions like this, but then I think about black people's lives 100 years ago and I see why sometimes the govt and protesters step in.

If laws hadn't been changed for women, I would not be a voting woman with my own business at the present time. So, I see it both ways. Because, in this business of mine, I don't want to be forced to sell to people I find abhorrent. Never happened, but hypothetically speaking.

For Kathyp, I find plenty of value in a lot of conservative values. I just find a lot of hate, intolerance and greed hiding behind conservative values also. I think many people are somewhere in the middle, but I find very few people in my real life who give a good argument for their conservative views. They get pretty stuck in a very narrow range of arguments.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2013, 12:55:02 PM »

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govt and protesters step in.

not the same, are they.  protesters and the people expressing their views.  they are also the people exerting market forces if they protest by not shopping there.  the government is neither.  it is mandating it's own morality regardless of the views of the people. 

Quote
If laws hadn't been changed for women, I would not be a voting woman with my own business at the present time.

the laws were changed to reflect what the constitution already said.  there never was anything in the constitution that kept women from voting, or blacks in slavery.  any time we have laws in conflict with the constitution, they need to be changed.  for instance, if we had a law that said women must vote, rather than one that says we may vote, that law would be unconstitutional.  we can no more be forced to participate, then restricted from participating.....except with obama care....
Quote
I just find a lot of hate, intolerance and greed hiding behind conservative values also

so you say, but i'd love for you to point some of those things out.  i know i have asked before, but i never seem to get answers.

Quote
but I find very few people in my real life who give a good argument for their conservative views. They get pretty stuck in a very narrow range of arguments.

maybe they don't try because you label conservative views, or views that you disagree with, as hateful, greedy, etc.  i am always amused when i hear liberals call conservative "narrow minded".  if you go through the news, every time you hear that someone is banned from speaking, or you hear the someone wants to limit the speech of another, you'll find that it's the left wanting to ban things. the lefts answer is "but, but, but...you want to ban abortion!!"   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2013, 07:32:58 AM »

a snip..
the broad conversation is:  does the government have the right to tell people what, and to whom, things must be sold.

tecumseh...
humm... nothing like changing the question if it fits your own bullet points.   and here I though this was about where do I draw the line.

another snip..
there never was anything in the constitution that kept women from voting, or blacks in slavery.  any time we have laws in conflict with the constitution, they need to be changed.

the black cat suggest...
or revise history if that meets you own agenda.

another snip..
the hate is directed toward us.

tecumseh replies..
or when caught with you hand in the candy jar you only have one hand left to point at someone else.
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I am 'the panther that passes in the night'... tecumseh.
kathyp
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« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2013, 11:54:17 AM »

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humm... nothing like changing the question if it fits your own bullet points.   and here I though this was about where do I draw the line

try reading the OP.
Quote
or revise history if that meets you own agenda.

show me where either were in the constitution?

if you need a tutorial on how to do quotes, i'd be happy to help you out with that.  it's pretty easy and will make your posts much easier to decipher.
although
Quote
or when caught with you hand in the candy jar you only have one hand left to point at someone else.
i'm not sure what any of us can do with stuff like this....

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2013, 03:11:58 PM »

...
Moots, I would tend to believe the govt doesn't have a place in decisions like this, but then I think about black people's lives 100 years ago and I see why sometimes the govt and protesters step in... I don't want to be forced to sell to people I find abhorrent....  I find plenty of value in a lot of conservative values. I just find a lot of hate, intolerance and greed hiding behind conservative values. …


Does the hate and intolerance you see hiding behind Conservative values out weigh the hate and intolerance I see hiding behind Liberal values?

I doubt that your answer to the above question is yes because in the next sentence you posted this nugget of wisdom.

...
“but I find very few people in my real life who give a good argument for their conservative views... “

Ah ha, so at last the truth has reared its ugly head!!! 
Oh please Ms. Honey, you've just abrogated all the hemming and hawing, stammering and stuttering that you’ve done for the last 30 posts in a vain attempt to convince us or maybe it is just to convince yourself that liberals are superior human beings with higher IQ’s and that Liberal ideas are the result of a higher though processes than the ideas that originate from us poor Conservative Neanderthals.  Thank you for clearing the air and for your honesty. 

Is the problem really with Conservatives expressing ourselves as you say, or is the problem the lack of an open mind on the part of Liberals?  I have always found that when Liberals are forced to express their beliefs or think that the liberal runs up against facts, and when forced to confront the facts the whole liberal construct crumbles like a sand castle at high tide.  It all goes back to that old touchy feely thing kathyp mentioned versus logic and natural law. 

When a Liberal refuses to acknowledge facts the only thing left for a Conservative to do is to look at the Liberal like the Liberal was from the planet Mars.  In the future when you talk to a Conservative don’t think of the blank stare is a loss for words on the Conservative's part luvin honey, instead think of it as an unspoken, “You have got to be pulling my leg!!!”
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luvin honey
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« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2013, 03:24:10 PM »

And you could reverse the words "liberal" and "conservative" in your post below to make just as much sense. Perhaps, Mr. King, I just don't have argumentative people in my life. Perhaps they are quite intelligent but too peacable to want to work hard at a great argument. As for those who actually do argue, all I ever hear about is welfare. That's it.

As for me in my real life, I don't start political conversations. So no blank stares to speak of. Good theories, though.

It would be wonderful if you would quite twisting my words and turning them into your own. It doesn't speak well for your ability to have a rational, emotionless debate. It's so hotheaded and excessive that I'm again not seeing where kathy gets this logic v. emotion argument.

You can call my words hemming, hawing, stammering and stuttering (rudely, I might add), but I've said the same thing over and over and over and over and over. It'd be best if govt kept its business out of things such as this. But sometimes it's necessary because humans have a tendency to be excessively ugly sometimes and occasionally need to be forced to stop treating each other appallingly badly.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2013, 03:30:32 PM »

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As for those who actually do argue, all I ever hear about is welfare. That's it.

seems to me some intelligent arguments have been made here and about things other than welfare?

making a good argument for what you believe takes some practice.  most of us know what we believe, but to articulate it is difficult.  i'm not sure what the point of having a position is, if you are not capable of defending it....to me, that just tells me that you have not really thought it through.

i don't think the problem is that no good arguments have been made.  i think it might be that you are not open to good arguments. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2013, 03:39:04 PM »

Yes, good arguments made here, but I was talking about in my real life, face to face with my conservative friends and family.

Mainly, though, the arguments here consist of insults and bludgeoning, but occasionally someone actually trying to hear what another is trying to say.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
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« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2013, 04:32:05 PM »

In face to face conversations with your Conservative friends are you in the habit of calling them rude?

If you do, then like you say it is no wonder that your Conservative friends and family don't talk to you much.
 
My words stand and I might add that I didn't say that your words were RUDE, that is something that you though up all on your own when you couldn't think of anything to say in defense of your beliefs.

It seems that old habits die hard, and it also seems that Liberals' much ballyhooed superior ethics is an illusion as well. 

Excuse me now while I feed my horses and take the time kill a few weeds that this intolerant Conservative found growing in his garden this morning. 
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luvin honey
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« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2013, 04:42:25 PM »

In face to face conversations with my conservative friends and family, I'm in the habit of listening. They have made some excellent points. Some are more into bludgeoning, so those conversations I just smile, nod, then let it drop.

It's kind of like parenting, assuming you're a parent? If you scream in your kid's face, do you think they hear the message? Or do they possibly just feel attacked and respond with fight or flight?

If you really want us "liberals" to hear your points, perhaps you could find a better way of presenting them. I LOVE discussions with people who are civil. It stretches my mind, makes me acknowledge other viewpoints, shows me things I hadn't thought of before. I can do none of those things while being attacked by another person.

Perhaps you've gotten so much into the habit of blind online attacks on complete strangers that you don't realize how abrasive it all has become. Or maybe this is the way you talk in real life and it actually works for you. In my real life, it would shut a conversation down immediately since, as I've said, my friends and family don't actually like to fight.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2013, 05:06:14 PM »

i don't fight with people but it will never be said of me that people don't know where i stand on an issue.  if the direct approach doesn't work for you, then i'm not the person you want to talk to.
life is to short to beat around the bush and i am not one to be easily offended....but i am easily board.  get to the point, or skip it.

one thing i have noticed though,  is so many people have become so afraid of offending someone that they have lost the ability to express themselves honestly.  that's unfortunate.

between not learning how to debate and being afraid, it's almost pointless to have conversations with people about things other than the weather.  not so much a problem here  Smiley

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2013, 09:47:12 PM »

i don't fight with people but it will never be said of me that people don't know where i stand on an issue.  if the direct approach doesn't work for you, then i'm not the person you want to talk to.
life is to short to beat around the bush and i am not one to be easily offended....but i am easily board.  get to the point, or skip it.

one thing i have noticed though,  is so many people have become so afraid of offending someone that they have lost the ability to express themselves honestly.  that's unfortunate.

between not learning how to debate and being afraid, it's almost pointless to have conversations with people about things other than the weather.  not so much a problem here  Smiley


Kathy,
Couldn't agree more...Simply put, political correctness in ruining our society.

This whole concept that people think they're entitled to the luxury of never having anyone say or do anything that they may find offensive amazes me.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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