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Author Topic: Where do you draw the line?  (Read 6347 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2013, 01:26:06 AM »

this idea that we are a melting pot is wrong, and dangerous

The "melting pot" idea was killed by leftist like some I will not honor by naming them

Like I’ve been saying, the right wing has swung so far off the pendulum that the darn thing has tipped over.  So now you’re calling this fellow a leftist too?  Wow. shocked

“We cheered in Los Angeles as the (Olympic torch) flame was carried in and the giant Olympic torch burst into a billowing fire in front of the teams. The youth of 140 nations assembled on the floor of the coliseum. And in that moment, maybe you were struck as I was, with the uniqueness of what was taking place before a hundred thousand people in the stadium – most of them citizens of our country – and over a billion worldwide watching on television. There were athletes representing 140 countries here to compete in the one country in all the world whose people carry the bloodlines of all those 140 countries and more.  Only in the United States is there such a rich mixture of races, creeds and nationalities. Only in our melting pot.

Ronald Reagan,  1984 acceptance speech.
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tecumseh
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« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2013, 07:04:11 AM »

the melting pot as an analogy paints a nice picture... it is my understanding that this picture at least in academic circles is considered to be quaint and naive.

a snip..
Like I’ve been saying, the right wing has swung so far off the pendulum that the darn thing has tipped over.

the black cat replies...
it seems even after multiple message from multiple sources they still continue to believe the world is flat and are almost genetically predisposed to shoot themselves in the foot whenever the opportunity arises.  denial (which ain't a river in Egypt) seem to be the one strong trait that connect them all.

although by upbringing I was taught to BELIEVE that great variation in opinion and skills are the mark of a robust civilization... I often do wish to hand the right handed wing nuts more guns to see just how inventive they can be this time in shooting themselves in the foot.
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I am 'the panther that passes in the night'... tecumseh.
kathyp
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« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2013, 11:21:08 AM »

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So now you’re calling this fellow a leftist too?

not at all.  i am making the point that we use the term without understanding what the left means by it.  it's a term, as you point out, which has been used over the years by many people.  it does not have now the meaning that RR gave to it when he used it.

the idea of the melting pot used to be that we melted into being Americans.  now, it's that we are "multicultural".  as the Europeans are finding, multiculturalism doesn't work.  it only serves to destroy  national identity and leave a country full of people interested only in what they can get, rather than what they can give.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2013, 01:48:43 PM »

Refusing to sell some one something is not hatefull, I don't hate anyone, its not contempt as I do not have any emotion involved so there is no need to scorn them or slight them, it is not intolerant because I really don't care what they do with their life as it has no bearing on me or my business...
So your misunderstanding of how to properly apply the word bigot and using the word bigot to define us (non liberals) shows us just how prejudicial and bigoted you liberals are.

If you don't care, why would you choose to not sell? That's baloney.
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kathyp
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« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2013, 03:03:26 PM »

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as it has no bearing on me or my business...

did you miss this part, or just ignore it?  granted, it might be subjective, but a religious objection to what is being asked for would have personal bearing, would it not?

addition:  and, as a matter of fact, should be constitutionally protected, but i don't think the "right to purchase" is in there.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2013, 04:07:26 PM »

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as it has no bearing on me or my business...

did you miss this part, or just ignore it?  granted, it might be subjective, but a religious objection to what is being asked for would have personal bearing, would it not?

addition:  and, as a matter of fact, should be constitutionally protected, but i don't think the "right to purchase" is in there.....
He says he would refuse to sell to someone. Then he says it's not hateful, as it has nothing to do with him or his business. I cannot mesh the two to make any sense.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
luvin honey
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« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2013, 04:08:23 PM »

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as it has no bearing on me or my business...

did you miss this part, or just ignore it?  granted, it might be subjective, but a religious objection to what is being asked for would have personal bearing, would it not?

addition:  and, as a matter of fact, should be constitutionally protected, but i don't think the "right to purchase" is in there.....
How could a person have a religious objection to being asked for something they have chosen to sell? If you're not already selling it, then you'd simply state you don't have it for sale. Where would there be a problem?
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The pedigree of honey
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A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2013, 04:14:09 PM »

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How could a person have a religious objection to being asked for something they have chosen to sell? If you're not already selling it, then you'd simply state you don't have it for sale. Where would there be a problem?

i'm not sure i'm getting your point, but i think you are getting a little technical.

the broad conversation is:  does the government have the right to tell people what, and to whom, things must be sold.  my contention is that the market will make the judgment about a business owners decision.  it is not the governments job to do that.  this case mentioned is one of several, and i would include the business owners that don't want to provide abortion pills as part of their insurance programs.

do we want to give the government the power to enforce whatever the government currently considers "moral"?  does the government have the power to force a business owner to do something they think is immoral?  whatever the reason a business owner has for making a decision, is it the right of the government to force something different?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2013, 04:43:51 PM »

If the Govt. has the right to force a small business owner to sell flowers to a homosexual couple when the owner doesn't want to. Then the govt. should have the responsibility to make all couples getting married support all businesses who service weddings. Things other then buying flowers, like  hire a photographer, hire an armed guard to stand at the door and protect them, hire a limousine, rent a tux and a wedding dress?, rent a wedding chapel, hire girls to throw rice, ect. Even if the couple does not want those thing to be part of their wedding. If the Govt has a constitutional right to protect one group then the Govt. should protect all groups. All these small businesses have organizations to which they belong.ie groups.
WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE??
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iddee
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« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2013, 07:18:45 PM »

So if Lovin Honey was selling dynamite, she would have no problem selling to a person who also wanted to buy a back pack and electronic igniter with it. Especially if he looked to be middle eastern. She would NEVER discriminate against a person because of their relationship to a particular group.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Sunnyboy2
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« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2013, 08:31:12 PM »

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So now you’re calling this fellow a leftist too? [/

the idea of the melting pot used to be that we melted into being Americans.  now, it's that we are "multicultural". 



Agreed.  At one time the idea was all who come to America become American, they add to the culture flavor, but absorbe and melt into the American pot.

This is changing as more and more refuse to melt in, but fight to maintain a culture and identity separate from being an American.  I have even heard the term "salad bowl" used to replace "melting pot".

But even this is not nearly the problem as defining a group by the behaviors or actions they take.  To complicate things more, a self identified group based on private sexual behavior which can include sexual acts with, same gender, different gender, either, or both.

Can all self identified groups expect the same status?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2013, 10:50:54 PM »

At one time the idea was all who come to America become American, they add to the culture flavor, but absorbe and melt into the American pot.

This is changing as more and more refuse to melt in, but fight to maintain a culture and identity separate from being an American. 

Let’s see, you mean those old immigrants like the Amish and Mennonites?  Yeah they really went the extra mile to become “American” didn’t they laugh  Or how about the Mormons?  Polygamy?  Plenty of radical pseudo Christian religious groups out there who have no desire what so ever to “melt in”.  Might even be a few bee keepers too, who knows  Wink

Sorry Sterling, discrimination became illegal the in 1960s.
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Sunnyboy2
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« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2013, 11:29:35 PM »

You are right Blue, there are some who did not fit in very well.  Maybe most?  wBut, aside from the Amish, the groups you name are very traditional "American".  I would not that, in dealing with the Mormons, it was congress who passed a constitional law defining marriage as the union between one man and one woman.  Emphasis then being on the "one" rather than "man" or "women".  I think it was the Edmunds-Tucker Act.
Maybe the melting pot was just a goal, rather than a reality in the past.  A warm fuzzy ideal which we all thought was worthy.   It no longer seems like much of a goal for anyone today.  It is Right wing nuts, or Left wing loons.  Black, white, Christian, atheist, Jew, Muslim. . . Hyphen American, not American plus more.
I think we are better as a whole, even if that means I have to put up with Blue's wrong opinion.
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kathyp
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« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2013, 12:22:40 AM »

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Let’s see, you mean those old immigrants like the Amish and Mennonites?  Yeah they really went the extra mile to become “American” didn’t they laugh  Or how about the Mormons?  Polygamy?  Plenty of radical pseudo Christian religious groups out there who have no desire what so ever to “melt in”.  Might even be a few bee keepers too, who knows

it's true that some groups were different from others.  that's part of the reason the founders favored power for states rather than a central government.  being American is not about all being the same. 
as for polygamy, i have always thought that this was something the federal government should not have been involved in, but since the Mormons (for the most part) were in the territories, and the territories were federal, that was the governments 'in'. 

when i look at those who came here before, my family among them, i see a completely different attitude and different goals.  for the most part, people came her to start over, build a better life, and eventually give something back to the country. 
now we have people coming here and demanding that they get stuff, that they be accepted, that they be equal....by way of taking from those who have earned.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Sunnyboy2
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« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2013, 01:05:19 AM »

An interesting fact about the Mormons, they were. Leaving the country for Mexico, and the. Mexican war started, and what is now the mountain west, up to about Idaho, changed hands and they ended up in America again.
The Edmonds Tucker out lawned polygamy across the country, I always thought anyway.
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sterling
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« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2013, 12:06:10 PM »


 BB>Sorry Sterling, discrimination became illegal the in 1960s.

 Do you honestly think that the Obama administration is treating everybody fairly??

 

 
 
 
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kathyp
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« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2013, 12:29:16 PM »

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The Edmonds Tucker out lawned polygamy across the country,

it dealt with the territory and made voting and holding office contingent on disavowing polygamy.  it made it impossible for the territory to become a state and remain polygamist.  one of the reasons the state upheld the act was that it was applied to a territory and territories fell under the jurisdiction of the feds.  if the area, basically Utah and surrounds, had been a state, i am not so sure the act would have stood...or at least the supreme court might not have heard it.

i think you are right that the act was universally applied, but as a practical matter it only impacted the territory.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
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« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2013, 03:50:03 PM »

I draw my line here.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june13/abortiondoctor_04-22.html

Where do you draw your line?
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kathyp
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« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2013, 04:03:25 PM »

i like this

"the trial has received more coverage from national news organizations after both sides of the abortion debate began fighting over its significance."

no, the trial has received more coverage after the MSM was shamed into covering it.  any nut in a basement engaging in infanticide would have drawn the morbid fascination of the press just as a cannibal might.  in this case, because he had the title abortion doc, they didn't want to touch it.  didn't want to tarnish one of lefts sacred cows....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
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« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2013, 05:54:05 PM »

...
in this case, because he had the title abortion doc, they didn't want to touch it.  didn't want to tarnish one of lefts sacred cows....

Sad but true, so much for the journalist honesty of the Main Stream Media.

The frightening part is that there are some here who will defend the MSM and their selective news coverage in the above matter.  

It seems that after 40 + years of legalized abortion that abortion is still a back alley medical procedure.  This back alley aspect of abortion is more by choice of those involved in providing abortions than it is by any necessity of hiding their activities from the law.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:49:33 AM by kingbee » Logged
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