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Author Topic: Where do you draw the line?  (Read 6968 times)
buzzbee
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2013, 11:44:31 AM »

The government so far has managed to legislate away a lot of rights and freedoms.Every law or regulation passed takes away someones freedom.
It's caleed control of the people. The Constitution was set up so that powers given the fed was at the consent of the governed. They overstepped that boundary long ago.
  On the argument of being forced to sell to everyone,it falls apart for many when gun dealers sell to mentally ill and psycopaths.Why is that, who determines whio is fit to purchase guns? You know mental illness is a private matter that should not have to be revealed to a gun dealer who may wish not to sell such person a gun.
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greg755
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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2013, 12:45:47 PM »

Quote
"...all men are created equal..." If a business owner, with a business license issued by their municipality is doing business with the community they are in, it should be against the law across the board to deliberately discriminate against any of its citizens!


Every one is equal but you are also responsible for the decisions that you make in life, it is not our or our governments responsibility to fix or make up for your decisions.

Quote
I sell at my local farmers market, maybe I should put up a sign that says "No ignorant, bigots served at this table." That would certainly exclude most of you in this thread.

First off you need to learn the definition of the word bigot, then you can lecture us about ignorance..  With that being said I wish all liberals would put that sign on their table it would save us a lot of grief and money.  I would be happy to buy from someone else.
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Teena
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« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2013, 12:49:35 PM »

You all got off topic long ago, this thread started out as a discrimination issue. You can choose to sell or not to whomever you want, but when it comes to closing out a particular group of people cause you don't believe the way they do, the original poster asked if you would do that. Don't sell to this one or that one but groups are protected against discrimination by law. Except for gay ppl. They are not a protected group, but they will be.

What about the rights of the discriminated? Is it fair to say No black ppl, or no Jews? you may choose not to sell to A black person cause you think he/she will cause some type of harm with your product, or for whatever your reason, but you can't say/ post a sign No Blacks Allowed. Just as she who posted a sign No Gays Allowed because she has some religious belief that doesn't agree with another persons lifestyle/religion/color of skin, etc.

Government should be limited by the ppl, but it should also protect the ppl, including All blacks/jews/gays/women etc.

It has nothing to do with giving the government all the power to control your individual lives. Its about the government doing the moral thing and protecting its ppl, all of its ppl. from each other. Otherwise those with the biggest guns and might obviously would kill anyone who is different from them.

Lets just bring back lynch mobs, maybe that's how you prefer to demonstrate your "God given rights".

Lets evolve into a society that at the very least tolerate each other, why exclude anyone from buying flowers?
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Teena
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« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2013, 12:53:01 PM »

Bigot = Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status.

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigotry in the following quotation: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."[1]
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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2013, 01:01:52 PM »

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You who are declaring the business owner has a "right" to decide who to do business with sure pick and choose the parts of the constitution you want to use, and you probably pick and choose the parts of the bible you want to believe in also.

is there a constitutional right involved here?  please point it out to me.

Quote
"...all men are created equal..." If a business owner, with a business license issued by their municipality is doing business with the community they are in, it should be against the law across the board to deliberately discriminate against any of its citizens!

not sure what equality has to do with sales.  "it should be"  why?

Quote
What about the rights of the discriminated? Is it fair to say No black ppl, or no Jews? you may choose not to sell to A black person cause you think he/she will cause some type of harm with your product, or for whatever your reason, but you can't say/ post a sign No Blacks Allowed. Just as she who posted a sign No Gays Allowed because she has some religious belief that doesn't agree with another persons lifestyle/religion/color of skin, etc.

in fact, that is the point.  if a business decides not to sell to a race, gender, etc. the market should decide whether or not that business has made a good decision.  it should have nothing to do with the government.
you bring up licensing as an excuse for government involvement.  why does the government licence anything?  1. for money and 2. for control.  getting rid of licensing would be good also.

Quote
It has nothing to do with giving the government all the power to control your individual lives. Its about the government doing the moral thing and protecting its ppl, all of its ppl. from each other. Otherwise those with the biggest guns and might obviously would kill anyone who is different from them.

is it the job of the government to determine morality?  do you want them to have that power?  what if tomorrow government determines that it's moral to kill you?  it was the argument of the Hitler government when they killed the mentally and physically defective.

Quote
Bigot = Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status.

fair enough.  still not the business of the government.

Quote
Otherwise those with the biggest guns and might obviously would kill anyone who is different from them.

this is why we are a representative republic and not a democracy.  this is why we have a constitution...which is the law of the land.

Quote
Lets just bring back lynch mobs, maybe that's how you prefer to demonstrate your "God given rights".

and there it is.  typical liberal lunacy.  from sales to lynching in just a couple of posts!!



« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 01:21:58 PM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
greg755
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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2013, 01:21:03 PM »

Tolerance =  I really don't like you or the things you do but I will tolerate it.  It is the perfect word for liberals to use as their mantra.  How hypocritical.  Smile to me face to face, yet all the time I thought we were friends, you really do hate me.

I prefer to be honest and straight forward with people.

Refusing to sell some one something is not hatefull, I don't hate anyone, its not contempt as I do not have any emotion involved so there is no need to scorn them or slight them, it is not intolerant because I really don't care what they do with their life as it has no bearing on me or my business...

So your misunderstanding of how to properly apply the word bigot and using the word bigot to define us (non liberals) shows us just how prejudicial and bigoted you liberals are.

But enough with this.
Please join me in singing..

Kumbaya My Lord Kumabya....
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2013, 02:35:57 PM »


Quote
You who are declaring the business owner has a "right" to decide who to do business with sure pick and choose the parts of the constitution you want to use, and you probably pick and choose the parts of the bible you want to believe in also.

is there a constitutional right involved here?  please point it out to me.


A business is private property and private property is protected under the Constitution.  In the Declaration of Independence it was stated as "the Pursuit of Happiness". 
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Cruachan!

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« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2013, 07:39:37 PM »

Teena,
I appreciate the passion you bring your position.  I do not believe even you believe it is so black and white as to suggest you would sell anything to anybody.  There is a Kansas church know for protesting funerals (usually military) and using very crude and foul sayings on sight they carry.
Are you telling me that if they came to your sign shop and ordered such foul signs to carry around your town, you would sell to them?  Just because
"...all men are created equal..." If a business owner, with a business license issued by their municipality is doing business with the community they are in, it should be against the law across the board to deliberately discriminate against any of its citizens!


I think you would say "NO" to the "ignorant bigots".  I would.  And I think you should have the ability to say no, without fear of governmental lawsuits. 
Most discrimination and intolerance is a matter of line drawing, not absolute right and wrong.  After all our entire criminal code is based on discrimination.  Some action is legal, some is criminal.
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2013, 08:28:37 PM »

Evidently nobody in the rental business or real estate business on here.....

This isn't 1776 anymore folks.
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kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2013, 08:37:14 PM »

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Evidently nobody in the rental business or real estate business on here.....

This isn't 1776 anymore folks.

what's the point that you were trying to make?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2013, 08:45:38 PM »

Fair housing act

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/FHLaws/yourrights
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Sunnyboy2
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« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2013, 09:19:40 PM »

You are right (correct, no offense meant laugh).
Not only fair housing act, but several federal and state laws prohibit discrimination in business transactions.
The point of homosexual activity being included crosses into an area of personal, moral behavior used as class definition for first time.
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kathyp
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« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2013, 09:33:03 PM »

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Fair housing act

right, but the question is (i think) should the government be involved in this stuff...or to what extent?

really, why should someone be forced to rent or sell to someone they don't want to rent or sell to? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2013, 10:09:49 AM »

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Fair housing act

right, but the question is (i think) should the government be involved in this stuff...or to what extent?

really, why should someone be forced to rent or sell to someone they don't want to rent or sell to? 


Exactly!  Private property is not to be controlled by the Government. That, by definition, is fascism. Today we call it Crony Capitalism, but its all the same, Government telling owners of private property what they can and can not do. 
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Cruachan!

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For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
From The Declaration of Arbroath 1320.
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2013, 10:30:47 AM »

It's also called zoning. It can be both good and bad.
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2013, 10:40:58 AM »

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It's also called zoning. It can be both good and bad.

true, but zoning is usually more a community matter and can be challenged or changed.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2013, 10:44:25 AM »

Yes, by the one with the most money.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2013, 01:33:29 PM »

You all got off topic long ago, this thread started out as a discrimination issue. You can choose to sell or not to whomever you want, but when it comes to closing out a particular group of people cause you don't believe the way they do, the original poster asked if you would do that. Don't sell to this one or that one but groups are protected against discrimination by law. Except for gay ppl. They are not a protected group, but they will be.

What about the rights of the discriminated? Is it fair to say No black ppl, or no Jews? you may choose not to sell to A black person cause you think he/she will cause some type of harm with your product, or for whatever your reason, but you can't say/ post a sign No Blacks Allowed. Just as she who posted a sign No Gays Allowed because she has some religious belief that doesn't agree with another persons lifestyle/religion/color of skin, etc.

Government should be limited by the ppl, but it should also protect the ppl, including All blacks/jews/gays/women etc.

It has nothing to do with giving the government all the power to control your individual lives. Its about the government doing the moral thing and protecting its ppl, all of its ppl. from each other. Otherwise those with the biggest guns and might obviously would kill anyone who is different from them.

Lets just bring back lynch mobs, maybe that's how you prefer to demonstrate your "God given rights".

Lets evolve into a society that at the very least tolerate each other, why exclude anyone from buying flowers?


    The laws we have on the books take care of all your concerns. You want special laws, for special people. Leftist have been dividing us for some time now. YOU are letting them accomplish their goals.
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kingbee
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2013, 08:01:22 PM »

... remember the “melting pot” idea [?]

Kingbee is the expert on Tribalism, maybe he can shed some light on the problems it causes.


The "melting pot" idea was killed by leftist like some I will not honor by naming them.  Suffice it to say they thought the "melting pot" idea quaint and provincial.  Leftist will all tell you that Chechins are required by their nature to set off large firecrackers at sporting events because their lunch money was stolen in the Madras and besides they are poor athletes.

Our resident Politically Correct compatriots uses identity politics and ethnic resentment (race, sexual orientation, religion, regional, etc to promote tribalism.  The Black Muslims and al Quida are tribal, as is the Mafia.  Even the Irish are not innocent.  Today Sean Connery (007) is using his Gold Finger money to poke and prod the flames of Scottish tribalism.  And don't tell me that a French man is not tribal. 

The la Raze movement is another good example.  The name la raza in Spanish means race or people like the German word Volk refers to member of the German tribe or race.  Although the word la raza first came to be identified with Hispanics about 100 years ago in 1944 General Generalissimo Francisco Franco commissioned a film named la Raze that was intended to promote the leftist Ideals of Fascism and the Iberian race by promoting Spanish identity politics similar to what the third Reich did between 1933 and 1945.

Among the la Raza racist groups is Movimiento  Chicano de Aztlan (Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan) (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups on the Earth.  It has permeated U.S. campuses since the 1960s, and continues its push to carve a racist nation out of the current American West.

MEChA's mission statement....
In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. … Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. … We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada..... translation... “For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing.”

B Bee, is that enough information to satisfy you?
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kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2013, 08:53:26 PM »

this idea that we are a melting pot is wrong, and dangerous.  this is not a place where people came together to blend into a gray blob.  this is a place where people came to be Americans.  Americans are (were) unique in the world.  we shed whatever we had been, on the promise that this country gave us the chance to be whatever we wanted to be...if we wanted it enough...if we worked hard enough.

sure, some people did that better than others.  lots of people failed.  more succeeded, or gave their kids the tools to succeed. 

we threw it away for food stamps and a hyphenated identity.  to bad, because there is no other place on earth that can duplicate what we once had.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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