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Author Topic: Where do you draw the line?  (Read 6919 times)
BjornBee
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« on: April 10, 2013, 03:32:12 PM »

So what is your litmus test? Suppose you are a business owner. Who do you think you should serve? If you walked up to a business shop window, which of these are OK with you?

1) We do not serve Jews
2) We do not serve those who drink.
3) We do not serve mixed racial couples
4) We serve only whites
5) We serve only Christians
6) We serve only Republicans.
7) We only serve Virgins.

I was listening to Rush today in the car. It is something I do far less nowadays than in the past. It seems Rush was all worked up over a Washington state business (florist) who has run afoul with state authorities for denying to serve a gay couple trying to buy flowers. Seems the owner has selected this one issue (a sin to her) to deny serving potential customers.

Rush went on to say that "This thing is only going to get worse, and it will get crazy, with all this gay stuff"

Really?  

I must say I think I must be old school. I look at all folks as sinners. And I could not imagine denying to sell a product based on a religious belief focused on this one issue.

It had me wondering what the litmus test for other things must be for this florist. Will she sell flowers to a pregnant bride? What if it were two different races. Lets go with White and black as most Christians have no problems with black and brown, or some other mixed race. Will she sell flowers to a divorced person marrying for the second time fingering their noses at that whole "till death do us part" thing? Will she sell flowers to a couple living together? Will she sell to a person not attending church?

I thought sending blacks to the back of the bus, putting up "No Jews" signs in the shops as seen in Germany years ago, and cabby's refusing to serve those other than whites, was stopped years ago. I can not imagine that a florist putting up a "No gays served here" sign is something the right defends. But Rush certainly seemed to think that each person should decide who they want to serve.

No wonder I stopped listening to Rush lately.

I wonder if you were all florists, what signs you would hang in your window if allowed.

Later Guys!

Back to the bees.
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hjon71
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 03:56:51 PM »

This will probably make some people mad but I think it is up to an individual private business owner, who they will or will not do business with. And customers have the right to do business elsewhere, picket, or open their own business if they so choose.
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Quite difficult matters can be explained even to a slow-witted man, if only he has not already adopted a wrong opinion about them; but the simplest things cannot be made clear even to a very intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he already knows, and knows indubitably, the truth of the matter under consideration. -Leo Tolstoy
kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 04:57:36 PM »

i agree with hjon.  if a business refuses to serve someone and you don't like what they have done, don't go there.  let the market make or break businesses for those kinds of decisions. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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iddee
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 05:58:12 PM »

I think any business owner who charges for his product should be jailed. The merchandise should be distributed evenly to all, for free.  NO EXCEPTIONS!!
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fshrgy99
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 06:11:53 PM »

I think businesses should only accept payment in cash .... no credit cards!
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fshrgy99
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 06:12:52 PM »

I think governments should only be allowed to spend money they have, no deficits at our great grand childrens expense!
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fshrgy99
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 06:15:04 PM »

I think it should be a law that money collected by the government could only be used for the purpose for which it was collected.

I think that politicians should be legally responsible to fulfill the promises they make when campaigning.

whoops sorry ... getting carried away ...will stop now  rolleyes
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 06:23:04 PM »

Quote
And I could not imagine denying to sell a product based on a religious belief focused on this one issue.

i wondered if you had thought this through?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 08:00:53 PM »

Should any Government, state or federal, have a right to tell me with whom I have to do business?
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Moots
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 08:15:31 PM »

Bjorn...Where is all your acceptance and tollerence when it comes to the rights of the business owner and her religious views.  You fault her for judging the gay couple, yet you seem to have no problem judging her...interesting!

I'm all for keeping the government out of as much as possible and letting the market place work it out.
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Vance G
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 11:41:55 PM »

Now Now, What two consulting adults and the child they lured into the house do behind closed doors is no concern of ours.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 06:13:08 AM »

Quote
And I could not imagine denying to sell a product based on a religious belief focused on this one issue.

i wondered if you had thought this through?

Yes, I have thought this through.

My decision is to sell to gays, blacks, Muslims, women, and anyone else. I see a person in front of me. Not a selected sinner, or someone I prejudge based on fear, bias or prejudice. Sorry, you will not see a "We serve no gays!" sign on my office wall or my front door. While I acknowledge that the "Good ol' Boy" network is still alive along with other not so "in your face" approaches to not selling to one person or another, I am just wondering how far some would go if they could. I see for some, we are not even talking forcing some to the back of the bus. We are talking about not even allowing them on the bus.

Rush used to just a few years ago say that the left could not stand on their principles. That they could not win in the arena of open dialog and ideas. This was his repeated call. Two or three weeks ago, it seems to have changed. He was now telling listeners to avoid certain questions if asked. He told them to change the subject all together. If asked about rape babies and other matters, to not partake in those "trap" subjects. I see some must be listeners as this seems to be the protocol.  Smiley It seems better to not tell the truth than have actually discuss it.

Thank you for the replies so far. It reaffirms some of my thoughts.

I always took the "get out of my life" approach to government. But I see where this may lead if this actually did completely happen. And I can only imagine how far this would go with signs posted on each door of stores in town, telling who should enter and who should not. Perhaps a little government is what some need.  Smiley
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Moots
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 10:59:56 AM »

Quote
And I could not imagine denying to sell a product based on a religious belief focused on this one issue.

i wondered if you had thought this through?

Yes, I have thought this through.

My decision is to sell to gays, blacks, Muslims, women, and anyone else. I see a person in front of me. Not a selected sinner, or someone I prejudge based on fear, bias or prejudice. Sorry, you will not see a "We serve no gays!" sign on my office wall or my front door. While I acknowledge that the "Good ol' Boy" network is still alive along with other not so "in your face" approaches to not selling to one person or another, I am just wondering how far some would go if they could. I see for some, we are not even talking forcing some to the back of the bus. We are talking about not even allowing them on the bus.

Rush used to just a few years ago say that the left could not stand on their principles. That they could not win in the arena of open dialog and ideas. This was his repeated call. Two or three weeks ago, it seems to have changed. He was now telling listeners to avoid certain questions if asked. He told them to change the subject all together. If asked about rape babies and other matters, to not partake in those "trap" subjects. I see some must be listeners as this seems to be the protocol.  Smiley It seems better to not tell the truth than have actually discuss it.

Thank you for the replies so far. It reaffirms some of my thoughts.

I always took the "get out of my life" approach to government. But I see where this may lead if this actually did completely happen. And I can only imagine how far this would go with signs posted on each door of stores in town, telling who should enter and who should not. Perhaps a little government is what some need.  Smiley

Yes Kathy....
Obviously he's given it a lot of thought!

If the government would simply pass more laws requiring everyone to act and think the way Bjorn thinks they should "act and think"....The world would be wonderful.  Smiley
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2013, 11:24:48 AM »

        Bjorn asked me awhile ago, what I meant by "manufactured change". I now find it necessary to explain. We keep hearing the left tell us our country is changing and to get over it. Bjorn, its called "social engineering". Saul Alinsky tactics have guided the left to the power they exercise today. How to take down society? Push the radical agenda and ridicule your opponent. Ridicule till they become toxic. (see Sara Palin) Bombard the public relentlessly with your point of view. See (mainstream media). Corrupt the education system to brainwash students to your radical point of view. Homosexuals would serve themselves better if they understood how they are being used. Does Obama believe sex acts between two men is a-ok? The answer is NO! All this crap is a side show, you know, "look over here!, not at what I'm dong over here!"  

     As a rule, I do not debate leftist. I find it a waste of time. While we argue about homosexuals, the left is very busy ruining America.  
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 11:49:19 AM by Fox Creek » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2013, 11:58:32 AM »

Quote
And I can only imagine how far this would go with signs posted on each door of stores in town, telling who should enter and who should not.

Quote
I always took the "get out of my life" approach to government. But I see where this may lead if this actually did completely happen.

are you saying that absent government regulations, there is no (acceptable) morality, and by extension, morality should be determined by the government?  are you saying that people, absent government regulations, will not make good decisions?  are you saying that the religious convictions of a business owner should be less protected than the other "rights" of the population?

if that same florist shop was in the middle of SF and made the same decision, the  shop would be out of business.  market forces would drive it out and everyone would applaud.  as it turns out, this  shop is not in SF and there are many other choices for the gay couple.  market forces are not driving this shop out and that is the way it should work.

most of the "rights" that the left claims are not protected/recognized by either the constitution or other laws.  even so, they insist that these rights be accepted and validated by the entire population.  they insist that the rights of others be put aside to accommodate them even when the weight of the law is against them. 
they claim to want equality and acceptance, but those things are only for them.  go against them and you are a bigot, racist, homophobic, etc. 





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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 11:59:24 AM »

Quote
While we argue about homosexuals, the left is very busy ruining America.

very true.  in this case, it's not really about homosexuality.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 12:05:04 PM »

       Bjorn asked me awhile ago, what I meant by "manufactured change". I now find it necessary to explain. We keep hearing the left tell us our country is changing and to get over it. Bjorn, its called "social engineering". Saul Alinsky tactics have guided the left to the power they exercise today. How to take down society? Push the radical agenda and ridicule your opponent. Ridicule till they become toxic. (see Sara Palin) Bombard the public relentlessly with your point of view. See (mainstream media). Corrupt the education system to brainwash students to your radical point of view. Homosexuals would serve themselves better if they understood how they are being used. Does Obama believe sex acts between two men is a-ok? The answer is NO! All this crap is a side show, you know, "look over here!, not at what I'm dong over here!"  

     As a rule, I do not debate leftist. I find it a waste of time. While we argue about homosexuals, the left is very busy ruining America.  

Fox Creek,
Well Said!  Glad to see there are still some logical thinkers in California and not everyone on the Left coast is drinking the Kool-aid.  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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BlueBee
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 02:09:25 PM »

LOL, I never thought I would see the day that BjornBee would be called a leftist!  lau lau lau
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kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2013, 03:15:09 PM »

Quote
LOL, I never thought I would see the day that BjornBee would be called a leftist!

not sure what he is.  maybe he's not sure what he is?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Fox Creek
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2013, 03:37:34 PM »

LOL, I never thought I would see the day that BjornBee would be called a leftist!  lau lau lau

     Ok, ok....in your case I will make an exception. My separate and last sentence of my post is a statement I make often. Just because I make a statement in a post, it does not mean I want to enter into an endless, useless debate with someone who is so fixed on their point of view, logic is ignored.

    In the past have told Bjorn, " except for the social issues, you are us!"  I was not calling Bjorn, a leftist.

    Interesting, how you could have come to your conclusion.  You being a leftist, I would have thought you would come up with a real response to my post. Instead of a reasoned......wait a minute....this is why I don't debate leftist!    

« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 03:51:46 PM by Fox Creek » Logged
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