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Author Topic: To treat or not to treat that is the question  (Read 849 times)
weldingfreak6010
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« on: April 08, 2013, 11:22:02 PM »

I will just start by saying I am a new beekeeper who never had my own bees before, and if this is in the wrong forum sorry about that as well. Now with out further ado  here is the question. To treat for American foul brood or not to. Now here is the reason I ask, Yes it is a evil inflection on the bees and very contagious. That I understand but if I treat will that just cover the symptoms and not stop or kill the spores that are already present that might get spread to other hives. Then heven forbid you forget to treat for what ever reason now you loose more hives if a outbreak would occur. Just want some clarification if possible thanks
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Finski
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 11:44:37 PM »

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In Europe antibiots are denied in productive hives.

Here AFB is handled so that bees will be shaked in front of hive and hive is clean and have fresh foundations.
When bees draw combs, spores will disappear from bees.
This is usual procedure in Germany, Denmark, Sweden ...

German researches show that spores can be  found in hives 2 years before visual symptoms appear.


http://fingalbeekeepers.net/Articles%20and%20Documents/Disease%20Related/von_der_Ohe_1.pdf

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Nature Coast Beek
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 04:00:03 PM »

Couple of questions?Huh

If you don't have any hive(s) up and running yet; how are the bees you're going to be keeping coming to you? Nuc or package?

If you do currently have hives, are they expressing AFB-like symptoms or do they, in fact, have AFB currently?

AFB is certainly a "dreaded" disease, but it's very situation dependent and is not a frequent occurrence.   



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D Coates
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 04:51:01 PM »

AFB is some bad stuff but you may be diving waaaay to deep in the weeds focusing on a worst case scenario.  At this point you'll be much better served putting your energies into learning the basics.
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Vance G
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 06:28:10 PM »

Do you take antibiotics just because you might run into a pathenogen?  If you do, it follows that it would be logical to treat with Tylosin or Tylan because your bees might run into one.  A lot of AFB is tolerant to Terrimyacin because many people treated just in case.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 08:16:45 PM »

Quote
Do you take antibiotics just because you might run into a pathenogen?

that's it in a nutshell.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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weldingfreak6010
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 10:18:58 AM »

You all have great points here, and I agree that should not take med if there is no reason too. But here is the thing almost all the class I have taken and say use the two main antibiotics  Fumagilin-B and Terramycin. to start out the packages of bee  or nucs. you get online and the message keeps spreading there on places like YouTube and others. Is itjust paranoia or what
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »

Quote
Is itjust paranoia or what

it was what has been done...so it must be the right thing to do....

lots of the suggestions you get are cut and paste from older books or older beekeepers.  they have a wealth of knowledge, but that does not mean they are right about everything. 
as you are learning try to get as much up to date info as you can.  the more you learn, the better decisions you can manke for your own bees. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
L Daxon
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 11:50:27 AM »

Your issue about treating AFB prophylacticly with antibiotics (which I used to do routinely back in the 1980s but not now) is part of a larger issue with regards to treating a whole host of bee diseases/pests with chemicals, essential oils, stimulants, etc.  AFB is one of the first issues that usually comes into question as it is the worst to get and once a hive has it, there is usually nothing to do but burn the whole set up and start over. But Varroa has kind of overtaken AFB as a new beekps major concern, especially since it is far more common and can easily lead to the death of a hive, without some kind (not necessarily chemical) intervention.

At some point you will need to decide what your approach to beekeeping and chemical use is. As a new beep, probably with only one or a few hives, the thought of losing one or more of them is alarming, but you (and your bees) will be better off if you can learn to raise "survivor bees" and not rely on chemicals which may kill diseases/pests in the short run but may weaken the overall health of your stock in the long run.  Go to Michael Bush's website www.bushfarms.com and read about his non-treatment philosophy. Or you can buy his new book, "The Practical Beekeeper," which is based on the information on his website.
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linda d
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 03:17:26 PM »

OP...

When I start from purchased nucs, I'm buying them locally and from credible sources. In other words, the apiary has been inspected before sales. Second, the nucs I buy, I get the purchased comb up and out of circulation as quickly as possible. Mainly because I use small cell frames in conjunction with foundation-less frames, but also to get that foreign hardware out of operation. Yes, it does take time and means no honey, but that's fine by me. Also, one of the main reason nucs aren't shipped is due to the fact that selling bees on hardware falls under different guidelines as selling packages(shook swarm) with additional inspections and fees required (I suspect due to AFB considerations).

If I were installing packages (shook swarm) into new equipment, I wouldn't consider AFB a major issue/threat. With that being said, AFB is always on my mind with my bees; but as others have indicated, simply treating to prevent isn't really a backyard beek consideration. Matter of fact, the last Bee Culture had a reader write in with the same question and the resident expert basically answered as just about everyone here has done. If you ain't got it, why you treating?

Lastly, here's a great video on remediation after AFB:
AFB remediaiton step by step
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bailey
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »

You might consider the possibility that what your reading and hearing is the hype started by people who make the treatments? 
Afb is bad but its not running all over the place jumping into hives to rape pillage and plunder. 
I would really think before I medicate.   If your just starting then save your money for something useful.
Bailey.
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
Finski
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2013, 04:59:45 PM »

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weldingfreak6010  has yet even bees and he is allready some kind of AFB criminal
and others are angels. What a discussion.

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10framer
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2013, 10:10:29 PM »

don't use antibiotics if you don't need to.  the best cure for afb is fire.  
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capt44
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2013, 10:36:18 PM »

When I first started I suspected AFB and bought tera-patties to treat them with.
Then the State Inspector looked at them and said Foul Brood isn't here.
Told me not to throw the tera patties away but there was no need to treat.
He said having registered hives if foul brood is found they will send out notices so we can medicate if we suspect foul brood.
In other words don't medicate unless you know for sure it's foul brood.
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Richard Vardaman (capt44)
weldingfreak6010
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2013, 03:19:58 AM »

Thanks guys Well that answered my question about AFB. I get my first package by next Tuesday and will take your words into consideration. Hey Finski thanks for having my back  Wink
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Finski
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 04:17:19 AM »

I get my first package by next Tuesday

Package bees does not move AFB. That is why they are accepted to import-export between countries.

Nucs are different.
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hankdog1
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 06:12:56 AM »

 grin Burn the hives?  Good lord are we in the dark ages of beekeeping?  Finski mentioned the treatment free way and there is tylan.  Also if your lucky and have a place nearby you can have the equipment irradiated boxes, frames, and drawn comb.  AFB sure isn't the end of a colony like it was years ago.
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Finski
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 06:28:42 AM »

grin Burn the hives?  Good lord are we in the dark ages of beekeeping?  Finski mentioned the treatment free way and there is tylan.  Also if your lucky and have a place nearby you can have the equipment irradiated boxes, frames, and drawn comb.  AFB sure isn't the end of a colony like it was years ago.

That is true. It is very well scientificall reseached how you can save bees, furnitures and part of your combs.

- sterilizing hive parts with flame
-  plastic hive with  3% lye (NaOH)
- shake bees  to foundation hive
- white combs, where is no pupasilk, you may wash and sterilize with Virkon S

. You may stop disease with antibiot, but it jumps up again after a month.

- Used frame woods you may boil in 3% lye, and they are like new.
Boiling happens in 10 frames bunches.
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