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Author Topic: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.  (Read 7197 times)
D Coates
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« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2013, 03:24:48 PM »

Oh I understood it perfectly.  Some people simply find it easier to accept and dwell on the negative without really considering the claims. 

Speaking of which lets do some math.  It's a common claim that 1/3 of all food is reliant upon bees for pollination correct?  The US population has increased from 151 Million in 1950 to 570 million in 2010 correct?  The amount of bees has gone down from 5 million hives in 1950 to 2.5 million hives in 2010 correct?  Going from 1950 numbers, how are we able to create food for 3.7 times the population with only 1/2 of the bees?  As per those accepted claims we should all be starving yet obesity is epidemic. 

This is exactly why this kind of Chicken Little stuff gains no traction.  Do you understand that?
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2013, 03:59:48 PM »

The amount of bees has gone down from 5 million hives in 1950 to 2.5 million hives in 2010 correct?   Do you understand that?


The same has happened everywhere.
But if you look honey yields, they have gone up-

Reason is that 50 years ago colonies were 1/3  that of modern hives.

I do not know about professional hives in USA, but hobbiest kept all kind of unbreeded bugs. Walk away and do nothing hives.

People has moved from farm villages to cities. Whose fault is that?

In good old days like in USA, it was easy to make honey when state byed the honey which you was not able to sell.
Open markets came and lazy business men dropped off.

Number of hives dos not tell much aboput number of bees or avout wellfare of bees.  But of course now CCD is a big issue and quite much mystery



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Jim 134
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2013, 04:22:32 PM »

D Coates....

IMHO What you need to know is how many bee hives in the 50s were on honey production and how many were on pollination and how many were on making bee packages and you need to know these same numbers for 2013.   I do know the USA used to have surplus honey WWII to 1985 or so 1985 to now no  surplus honey.



                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
bilder
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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2013, 05:15:41 PM »

I would bet good money that GMO's play a part in it all.

When Monsanto makes a plant that can have roundup dumped on it and still live, you are asking for trouble.

Farmers now use herbicides like Roundup on their crops without fear of losing the harvest.  All this poison gets into the soil, water, and any animal that uses the crops for food.  That would be bees, cattle, chickens, and humans. 

It is already taking out the bees, only a matter of time before it starts to wipe out larger critters too.

And through this all, you have former executives from Monsanto, Bayer, and others heading up the very organizations that are supposed to prevent this from happening.  The foxes have been guarding the hen house for decades and we are now facing the result.   They do not care though.  They make millions while our food system is on the brink of collapse.   
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Jim 134
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« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2013, 06:10:51 PM »

I do know then Varroa mites first came (1984) to New England beekeeper lost about 75% of the hives





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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
D Coates
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« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2013, 06:14:08 PM »

Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.  Honey is perceived as a commodity and many other folks do it cheaper.  People by in large purchase what cheapest when buying what they perceive as commodities.  I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  The 5 million in '50 to 2.5 million in '10 stats kept getting thrown out and I'm showing how "stats" can be completely deceiving and used to further Chicken Little causes if one is not careful and thinking for themselves.

Bilder,

Your timing with an additional unproven anecdotal evidence theory couldn't have been timed better if I had asked for it.

Finski,

Interesting insight and points.  I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of todays hives, and I don't know if the US govt. ever bought surplus honey though.  Wished the chart on hive honey production was for the US but for this discussion Mexico will have to do.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2013, 06:55:40 PM »

D Coates............
 

Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.  Honey is perceived as a commodity and many other folks do it cheaper.  People by in large purchase what cheapest when buying what they perceive as commodities.  I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  The 5 million in '50 to 2.5 million in '10 stats kept getting thrown out and I'm showing how "stats" can be completely deceiving and used to further Chicken Little causes if one is not careful and thinking for themselves.

Bilder,

Your timing with an additional unproven anecdotal evidence theory couldn't have been timed better if I had asked for it.

Finski,

Interesting insight and points.  I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of todays hives, and I don't know if the US govt. ever bought surplus honey though.  Wished the chart on hive honey production was for the US but for this discussion Mexico will have to do.

Can you proven this Huh

D Coates....

IMHO What you need to know is how many bee hives in the 50s were on honey production and how many were on pollination and how many were on making bee packages and you need to know these same numbers for 2013.   I do know the USA used to have surplus honey WWII to 1985 or so 1985 to now no  surplus honey.



                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

 Did you not see this Huh

               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Jim 134
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« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2013, 07:16:13 PM »

Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.  Honey is perceived as a commodity and many other folks do it cheaper.  People by in large purchase what cheapest when buying what they perceive as commodities.  I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  The 5 million in '50 to 2.5 million in '10 stats kept getting thrown out and I'm showing how "stats" can be completely deceiving and used to further Chicken Little causes if one is not careful and thinking for themselves.

Bilder,

Your timing with an additional unproven anecdotal evidence theory couldn't have been timed better if I had asked for it.

Finski,

Interesting insight and points.  I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of todays hives, and I don't know if the US govt. ever bought surplus honey though.  Wished the chart on hive honey production was for the US but for this discussion Mexico will have to do.

The USA gov do give price supports to beekeepers in the 70s and maybe the 80s for surplus honey.


               
                  BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
luvin honey
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2013, 01:31:11 PM »

jim,
i agree that the mite issue has been a big blow for honeybees and now the hive beetle but this is trying to pin everything on pesticides.  
they made one really good point, hives from almost every state are shipped into one small area at the same time then after being exposed to each other shipped back to where they came from.  bees are being exposed to problems from every part of the country.  i'm not a big fan of migratory pollination because of that and the fact that it's stressful on the bees in general.
they also pointed out that when you treat for varroa you are trying to kill a bug on a bug.  so, when people use the various pesticides designed to kill the mites what is that doing to the bees?
is there a problem? definitely.  can it be blamed squarely on agriculture?  i doubt it.  
i think one of the biggest dangers for bees is beekeeping these days.    
I think this makes a lot of sense. I'm an organic farmer, but the crops that get the most spray and are GMO don't tend to be bee crops. I think it's incredibly dangerous to put most of a nation's pollinators in 1 area, on 1 crop and all together.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2013, 01:32:17 PM »

.
What I understood, USA was last summer extremely hot. Am  I right?

It has influences of quality and amount of pollen and it has bad influences on bees wintering.
Huge losses  have appeared on areas which suffer  from dryness.

.
I would guess this was a pretty big stressor for the bees. Extremely hot and extremely dry for 6 weeks here.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
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Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
luvin honey
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2013, 01:36:02 PM »

The drought likely has something to do with the rough winter, but here in Minnesota I believe th bigger issue was the winter weather.  We never got those nice days for bees to break cluster and cleanse/rearrange stores.  Not only that but we had some bad cold streaks.  I don't care what everybody says, a week straight of highs of 0 f and lows of -30 f cannot be good for bees.  So long stretches of bitter cold matched with zero days of cleansing flight weather makes for poor overwintering of colonies. 
Here, too. One of my hives that died had a lot of honey left. Probably just too cold to get to it.
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The pedigree of honey
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---Emily Dickinson
Finski
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2013, 02:42:19 PM »

I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of today's hives,


I have only my own experience as prove that colonies are now 3 fold compared to 50 years ago.

When I look old hives from internet, which we had in Finland 50 years ago. There was one brood chamber and tiny super. That was all.
In Finland all those hives are now rotten.

Of course every country has its own figures and history.

But why beehive numbers should same as 40 years ago?


In USA it was such system that bees wintered in south and they were moved up to Canada's fields
but was it something 1975 when Canada closed the border.


80% of Canadian beekeepers are professionals.


Svenska bikupa. These hive's origin is propably in Germany.
They were videly used with German Black bees.  Very few use any more German Blacks
.

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D Coates
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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2013, 04:58:52 PM »

D Coates............
 

Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.

Can you proven this Huh

D Coates....

IMHO What you need to know is how many bee hives in the 50s were on honey production and how many were on pollination and how many were on making bee packages and you need to know these same numbers for 2013.   I do know the USA used to have surplus honey WWII to 1985 or so 1985 to now no  surplus honey.

                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

 Did you not see this Huh

               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley

Yes I did.  That's why I said, I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  That's a fools errand.

As for proving there's more money in pollination than honey?  Okay, let's do the math again.  You're currently making $125 to $150 per strong hive per almond contract.  Then you move to various fruit trees where you'll make another $75 to $100 per hive.  The you can head to the Blueberries, cranberries, strawberries, raspberries, and black berries where you can make $50 to $75 per hive.  Then head off for squash, pumpkins, peppers etc. for $25 to $50 per hive. 

As a commercial beekeeper let's assume you hit 3 of the four and get the lowest rates.  You've grossed $250 per hive.  To make something similar via honey getting a very generous $3 per pound of honey you'd have to produce over 80 pounds of honey per hive.  Drop it to 2.50$ and it's 100 pounds etc.  Pick up a 4th pollination and or get a slightly higher pollination rate and you can quickly see how honey doesn't pay like pollination. 

This is especially true when demand outstrips supply as was shown in the "news" report.  A vacuum has been created by the supposed shortage of bees, pollination prices are going to go up, new beekeepers will enter the market to fill this vacuum, prices will go back down.
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derekm
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« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2013, 05:40:00 PM »


what happened to all the other pollenators?
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Jim 134
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2013, 09:40:50 PM »

D Coates......
Is Kim Flottum also wrong Huh

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/opinion/flottum-bees-death/index.html?hpt=us_t5





             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Finski
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2013, 05:18:19 AM »


what happened to all the other pollenators?

The world is full of pollenators, all kind of bugs. And most of food pollination happens via wind and via self pollination.
Lets cry together.



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rdy-b
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2013, 12:50:22 PM »

  Every year its the same keepers that consistently supply premium hives
theres no secret that lack of bee forage has a huge impact on colony health
theres also no secrete that varoa can disseminate your hive count---last year there
was a big push to get APIVAR a section 18-there where pending lawsuits against
makers of miticides that contain the active ingredient AMITRAZ for off label non approved
treatments as a result the the products where pulled from market shelves in the USA
this forced the approval of apivar with its active ingredient Amitraz-small victory for section 18
this had huge impact on commercial world-amitraz was smuggled in from MEXICO and flown in
legally from AUSTRALIA cost was at a premium---
nutritional needs where guided more by economic attitudes rather than bees needs-costs of protein sub
are monumental in the commercial world--
no longer can beekeepers skate by and cash in on the almond pollination gold rush--
this years crop was set and looks to be near record lbs per acer--and it was done by the keepers who
understand the cause and effects of mites and nutrition and will manage there colonies by tending the bees needs
 Smiley  yes times are a changing RDY-B
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Jim 134
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2013, 02:46:14 PM »

Bret Adee, who is an owner, with his father and brother, of Adee Honey Farms of South Dakota, the nation’s largest beekeeper, described mounting losses.

“We lost 42 percent over the winter. But by the time we came around to pollinate almonds, it was a 55 percent loss,” he said in an interview here this week.

I believe Adee Honey Farms of South Dakota, has about 85,000 Hives.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/science/earth/soaring-bee-deaths-in-2012-sound-alarm-on-malady.html?smid=fb-share



              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
rdy-b
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2013, 03:20:08 PM »

thats a lot of hives to treat for mites--beekeepers have been blaming farmers for loses since the beginning
AG is not going to change-keepers must adapt to survive--there is a blurry line these days between CCD and
systemic pesticide--the days of pollinating row crops back to back or as some seam to think 4 sets one right after the other
are gone --almonds drive the beekeeping industry--after almonds there are no loses only gains cheesy intil august--management
of livestock is what we are talking about-there is no shortage of bees after almonds and as long as the almond crop gets set there never will be -my bees are the best since the past ten years -perfect weather has them busting at the seams
there was no ran in almonds this year -bees made honey and came back heavy-its not even may and i am double suppering
with the bottom supper full- Smiley most years they swarm at this time --this year drawn comb above held them-because
they where able to move honey up into the supper-not needing feed-dont get me wrong any press for beekeepers helps shed light on are la-bores problems -but doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result each time part of the strugle
beekeepers bring on them selfs-- cool RDY-B
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RHBee
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2013, 07:54:31 AM »

Do you all think that we can agree that we have a situation here? The honey bee is under attack on many fronts. I don't care which way you look at it the outlook is dire. There are so many factors that are out side of our control.
I for one can't sit back and accept the given that I should expect 20-30% losses. I am a firm believer in the saying "You can't do what you've always done and expect to get what you've always got". Beekeepers have to change their ways. In the face of adversity the adaptable can survive. In chaos lies opportuinity.
This is how I see this situation. I know I'm new to beekeeping but I'm no stranger to problem solving. There are basics to any trade or craft but then it comes down to the individual.
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Later,
Ray
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