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Author Topic: Too much space?  (Read 1075 times)
jim81147
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« on: March 02, 2013, 08:27:13 PM »

Total noob here . I got my hive and super kits yesterday from Mann Lake . I started putting them together today . I got 8 frame equipment . So I put in 8 frames just to see how everything fits and I find out I have enough room for a 9th frame with room left over . Is that how its supposed to be? Are the frames just centered in the box leaving an air gap on both edges ?From all the pics I have seen I was expecting the frames to totally fill the hive/super . Did I screw something up before i even started? Undecided  Thanks.
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Vance G
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 09:15:34 PM »

You most certainlywant to use 9 frames in the box until the combs in the frames are drawn and push them together tight to the middle.  The frames will get wider from wax and propolis.  Personally, I trim all my frames to 1 1/4" so I can get 11 in my ten frame boxes and run them that way until the combs are drawn. 
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Moots
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 10:45:38 PM »

NO...That isn't how it works!  If you ordered 8 frame equipment and it's fitting 9 frames, something's very wrong.  I run 8 frame equipment,  while there is some "play" with all 8 frames installed and you split the difference and center them....a ninth frame does not fit!

What's the measurements of your box?
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jim81147
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 11:27:59 PM »

Inside dimension on the box is 12 1/2 inches . 8 frames measures 10 15/16 inches . 9 frames measures 12 1/4 inches . I was thinking about going with 1 1/4 inch frames like Michael Bush discusses and that would measure 9 frames = 11 1/4 inches , so the least amount of gap i could get would be 9 regular frames = 1/4 inch left over , the most would be 9 each 1 1/4 inch frames which would leave 1 1/4 inch gap leftover .
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Moots
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 11:58:27 PM »

Interesting...
I know that there are some variances in measurements between different companies.  I built my own equipment but my measurements matches kelleybess boxes.  My short boards are 13 3/4, leaving an I.D. of 12 1/4.  Again, I use the kelleybees N style frames, and can tell you, 9  of them will not fit in a box.

Going with 1 1/4 equipment is a whole different discussion.  Smiley

Might be worth a call to Mann Lake to inquire as to why 8 frame equipment fits 9 frames?  huh
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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jim81147
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2013, 12:14:22 AM »

I know that the hive boxes match the bottom board , upper cover and telescoping cover that they sent me , so I feel that is correct . I also can do the math and the frame widths which , from everything I have read are standard ( 1 3/8 inches) for correct bee space . My issue , which I admit might be totally due to my lack of experience , is why SO much oversize ? Maybe you need that much extra room when manipulating frames? It was my understanding that given that much extra room on the sides ( roughly 3/4 per side ) that the bees would fill it with burr comb. Maybe I should go with 10 1 1/4 inch frames in my 8 frame setup grin 
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Moots
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2013, 12:53:06 AM »

Jim,
I'm with you....I was shocked when I put my first 8 frames in my first box.  As a matter of fact, probably more shocked than you, or should I say scared.  Remember, I built my own boxes, so I was totally convinced for a moment that I had totally botched my measurements and built the wrong size boxes.  LOL!

With my setup, I've got maybe a little less room than you, but basically 5/8" on each side, which seems quite significant.  Trust me, it's not.  You'll be glad to have the space to work the hive.  I'm a newbie also but the approach I've been taught and have been taking is to just keep your frames pushed together and centered....leaving equal free space on each side of the box.  Somehow once you add bees, drawn comb, propolis, and maybe a SHB jail or two....that extra space seems to reduce significantly. 

Good Luck!
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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jim81147
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2013, 01:04:38 AM »

Well then , I will continue on and forward . Any reason not to put 9 frames in the box if there is plenty of room? Thanks for the input !!
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Moots
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2013, 01:20:16 AM »

Well then , I will continue on and forward . Any reason not to put 9 frames in the box if there is plenty of room? Thanks for the input !!

I'm sure you can, but that's only going to allow you 1/4" of play if I'm not mistaken...I think you are going to quickly realize that's not "plenty of room"....But I may be wrong. 

I'm thinking there's a reason Mann Lake designed their boxes to have over 1 1/2 inches of play and KelleyBees designed there's with over 1 1/4 inches.... Smiley

If getting more than 8 frames in a box is a priority, I guess I would have to ask why you decided to go with 8 frame equipment.  Wink

I'd run 8 frames and center them up and I think you'll quickly be surprised how quickly ALL that extra space seems to disappear.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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jim81147
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2013, 02:16:51 AM »

dont really have a "need" for 9 frames , just know how my wife is if she finds an empty spot in the house , did not know if the "girls" would be the same way  grin
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Jim 134
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2013, 03:01:58 AM »

NO...That isn't how it works!  If you ordered 8 frame equipment and it's fitting 9 frames, something's very wrong.  I run 8 frame equipment,  while there is some "play" with all 8 frames installed and you split the difference and center them....a ninth frame does not fit!

What's the measurements of your box?
Ok, here's what I've gleaned so far regarding width of 8-frame boxes coming from the different companies. If anybody has any information to add such as other vendors sizes or corrections to my list feel free to speak up.

Rossman 13-3/4"
Kelleys 13-3/4" (ok, I just looked and Kelleys is stating 13-13/16")
Miller 13-3/4"
Brushy Mountain 13-3/4"
Dadant 13-3/4"
Mann Lake 14"
Betterbee 14"
Western Bee state standard as being 13-3/4" but will cut to your specs.

That's all I have info for. I'm taking it that the associated wooden ware (bottom boards, tops, etc.) should interchange between the companies with the same box widths.

Length shouldn't be a factor should it?...being as standard length is 19-7/8"? Or, is there differences encountered there, too?




                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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Jim 134
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2013, 03:57:07 AM »

Interesting...
I know that there are some variances in measurements between different companies.  I built my own equipment but my measurements matches kelleybess boxes.  My short boards are 13 3/4, leaving an I.D. of 12 1/4.  Again, I use the kelleybees N style frames, and can tell you, 9  of them will not fit in a box.

Going with 1 1/4 equipment is a whole different discussion.  Smiley

Might be worth a call to Mann Lake to inquire as to why 8 frame equipment fits 9 frames?  huh

Moots
Something to think about if YOU MIX AND MATCH Woodware.
 
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         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
T Beek
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2013, 05:59:15 AM »

I know that the hive boxes match the bottom board , upper cover and telescoping cover that they sent me , so I feel that is correct . I also can do the math and the frame widths which , from everything I have read are standard ( 1 3/8 inches) for correct bee space . My issue , which I admit might be totally due to my lack of experience , is why SO much oversize ? Maybe you need that much extra room when manipulating frames? It was my understanding that given that much extra room on the sides ( roughly 3/4 per side ) that the bees would fill it with burr comb. Maybe I should go with 10 1 1/4 inch frames in my 8 frame setup grin 

As Vance said above, the particular design you have will take 9 frames initially.  No big deal as once the nine have begun getting drawn out you will be forced to remove one and be left w/ 8.

AGREED; mixing and matching woodenware can be a real pain, but most Beeks figure it out w/ some modifications.
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jim81147
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2013, 12:48:55 PM »

so with the frames growing as they get drawn out what does that do to the bee space? I guess I am having trouble comprehending that the frames will grow so much , yet in reading about narrow frame hives they say to shrink your frames by only 1/8 of an inch , down to 1 1/4 inches from 1 3/8 inches to help promote smaller cells and more efficient use of space by the bees . I am just trying to work things out in my own mind before I get a hive going so that I know what to expect and how to hopefully react .
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T Beek
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 01:01:08 PM »

Your bees will take care of "bee space" between drawn frames.

"nobody does it better"  C. Simon  cool
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BlueBee
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2013, 01:17:19 PM »

Makes me feel sorry for the rest…

Jim, if your frames are all packed together in the middle of the box, ALL the inner frames will get combed out to their normal size.  The outer two frames will get fatter comb (honey on the other frames) which will eat up a lot of the slop space.  I’m not a big fan of that, because then you can’t shuffle the outer combs/frames in the brood area; they’re too thick.  But life isn’t perfect.  You just find something else to do with those outer fat combs eventually.  Anticipation…..

My jumbos use narrow frame spacing but NOT small cells.  I’m not convinced the small cells do diddly squat (but I could be wrong).  However the narrow spacing is still a nice thing for extra large sized combs because it results in much flatter combs (no big honey humps).  For the standard rather small sized “deep” combs/frames, I don’t bother going narrow.    
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Fox Creek
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »

I use the Mann Lake equipment, 8 frame boxes. No worries with using 8 frames leaving a little play. Have not had any problems will burr comb. You will be fine.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 02:48:46 PM »

You can fit (just fit) 9 frames in a Mann Lake box as it's 14" (outside) rather than 13 3/4".  The mann lake is 12 1/2" inside and 9 frames are 12 3/8".  With a 13 3/4" box you have 12 1/4" inside and you can't quite fit it.  If you shave 1/16" off each side of each end bar, you can use 9 frames in the box.  If you don't do this, I would not as it will be too hard to get the frames out.  Either way, crowd all the frames together in the center of the box.
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Michael Bush
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richter1978
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2013, 03:52:44 PM »

I was curious if anyone using narrow spacing shaves the lower portion of the end bars to keep that bee space?
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