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Author Topic: 'Scientific' bee study in todays news!  (Read 1663 times)
fshrgy99
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« on: March 02, 2013, 07:26:13 AM »

This article reminds me of the ones that the cigarette companies paid for proving cigarettes were not harmful to health!

Simply Shameful!

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-wild-pollinators-20130301,0,918730.story

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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 10:24:39 AM »

maybe that was the wrong link?  i'm not sure what part of the upset you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 10:33:39 AM »

I'm kind of with Kathy on this one....help us out.  huh

That may be one of the least offensive things I've ever seen in the LA Times.  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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T Beek
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 11:04:07 AM »

Seems there may be good reason  for being suspicious of 'some' migratory beekeeping 'ethics' and its near mythological advantages over indigenous pollinators.  Not to mention the effect it may be having on honeybees, and as implied by the article, native species as well. 

Definitely worth thinking about.
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vmmartin
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 11:20:35 AM »

I think there may be something to the idea that the "wild" bees may be healthier than the "domesticated" ones.  Moving bees over long hauls like that cannot be good for them.  I happen to disagree with the practice on mono culture as well.  I am just not real sure how they tell which ones are wild and domesticated if they are all on the same crop.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 12:15:29 PM »

Quote
I am just not real sure how they tell which ones are wild and domesticated if they are all on the same crop.

good point.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 01:03:37 PM »

Quote
I am just not real sure how they tell which ones are wild and domesticated if they are all on the same crop.

good point.

I always thought you spotted the wild ones by looking for the cute ones with the tattoos on their lower back!  Wink
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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T Beek
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 02:07:18 PM »

Honeybees (a non-native species) and our "indigenous pollinators" are as vastly different as there are species of them.  

Perhaps the most obvious  example is the bumblebee, few would confuse one with a honeybee.  The Americas are host to about a dozen varieties of bumblebee alone (Wisconsin has five distinct varieties).  How many native bees are there?  I'm not sure but I'd bet its a lot as there are several varieties just of of Mason Bees, Leaf Cutter and Blue Orchard Bees alone (the list really does go on and on).  

Add to that several varieties of flies (some even mimic bees in appearance), wasps, hornets, moths....and that's just insects.  

I believe those conducting the study are likely well trained and know the difference.  

Even our 'so-called' ferrel or 'wild' honeybees are more than likely just some poor Beeks lost swarm and according to the 'experts' while they are making a comeback of sorts, its no where near the population of 50 or 60 years ago, when Beeks around the Country were still proclaiming the benefits of the little "Black Bee or German Bee" which has since pretty much disappeared.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 03:25:24 PM »

I used to subscribe to Nature (UK) and Science (US); these are the World’s top two hard core scientific research journals.  They each have tons of details but they do become too much to keep up with outside of academia.  I suspect this is an article worth reading if it was published in Science.  I’ll have to see if I can find time to read it at the library.

As T Beek says, there are all kinds of little native bugs crawling around the flowers if people just take the time to observe what is going on around them.  My observations over the years is: On some plants the honeybees are clearly the overwhelming pollinator, while on others there is a near equal mix of honey bees and natives, and on other flowers, almost no honey bees.  

I raised some bumble bees last summer.  I’m hoping to find the time to experiment with them again this spring.  I also had some leaf cutters move into an old bee box!
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fshrgy99
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2013, 11:43:12 AM »

After re-reading the article I admit that perhaps I have over reacted.

Perhaps the time of day and and/or my contentious neighbor may have contributed to a 'reactionary' mood when I posted this link.

However, I have been reading about the neonicitinoids recently and I took offense to the absence of any reference to pesticide use as a cause for the 'Mysterious' demise of bee populations.

Of course a shallow genetic pool is a real concern and it is likely true that feral bees, with a more diverse gene pool are better pollinators. However, a shallow genetic pool is (IMO) hardly the sole cause (or, IMO the principle contributor) of colony collapse.

Preservation of the gene pool and habitat protection are admirable initiatives. However, genetic research is not a complete response to pesticides which lie at the root of the problem.

Here is a light hearted spoof on 'diversionary' or biased tobacco research that illustrates my reference to tobacco in the initial post.

Smoking Lettuce: Auto Tune the News #5

« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 01:44:44 PM by fshrgy99 » Logged
T Beek
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2013, 12:42:06 PM »

 lau lau
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2013, 03:43:03 PM »

Here is a Penn State article referencing neonics:
http://www.extension.org/pages/65034/neonicotinoid-seed-treatments-and-honey-bee-health
The most dangerous time with neonics are at planting time.They are not ready to blame ccd solely on neonics.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:07:49 AM by buzzbee » Logged
fshrgy99
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2013, 06:31:25 PM »

Although this is not a 'scientific' reference (apologies to the academics) I found this youtube very informative in regards to systemic pesticides.... dangers from dust when planting and residual pesticides in nectar and pollen.
(apologies to forum veterans from a newbeek if this vid has already been referenced 'to death' on the forum)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9boueJGtLPY

Have also had conversations with local commercial beeks (1000+ hives) here in Ontario who cited colony losses of approx 50% when the corn went in last year.

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T Beek
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 04:40:25 AM »

I think you're on to something fshrgy99.  

The "talc" (dust) left behind from planting seems to be causing considerable and LONG Lasting problems, despite being developed to 'reduce' overhead (spray) exposure it didn't quite work out so well.  Humans....who needs em?  grin  

In lieu of NOT applying these products, Some seed companies have been advising farmers to "wet" equipment and perimeters of fields before, during and after as a precaution and to reduce the amount of talc re-released.  

What a mess we've made of this planet.

Honeybees don't particularly like or get much from corn (and corn sure doesn't need honeybees), but when its all that's available they won't intentionally starve themselves.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 08:41:10 AM by T Beek » Logged

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Haddon
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 12:03:53 PM »

I hate the original article or at least what I have read of it. Its just another one of the eco nuts attacks on beekeepers and honey bees in general. Heck even from the article I could not figure out if they were counting honey bees also in this list as long as the farmer didnt pay for them. Yes native bees do a good job at pollinating crops but they make those articles like they are solving the problem with just use native bees and all will be right with the world. Maybe the watermelon farmer doesnt need to hire beehives but are they counting what they call feral bees if so did any other farmer near the cheap guy hire bees if so how you know the so called feral bees are not just bees from the neighbors fields. I dont migratory beekeep but seeing that it has been done for thousands of years i dont see it as the devil either. Also the article stated that it was observations from all over the world so in all over the world the honey bee is native so its a native pollinator.

Bottom line I have the same thoughts as fshrgy99 at first read.

I could go on a 30 page rant on this little advise never let a Eco nutty friend know bees were at one time called the white mans fly you could come close to losing a friend.
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D Coates
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 04:23:34 PM »

More "earthy" gobbledygook pap.  There's actually a poll at the top of the article asking if "Should farmers switch to wild bees?"  The same geniuses that said yes are going to flip out at the costs associated with the costs of "Wild bees".  Is a feral honey bee wild?  Native bees that were raised in effective quantities couldn't be considered truly "wild".  What would that invariably evil industry eventually be called "Big-Bee", "Big-Bug", "Big-Native"?  How much land would be required to have the necessary critical mass of truly "wild bees" to pollinate modern agriculture?  I wonder what folks would think when there's no food to be had at a reasonable price so we can set aside enough land for required "wild bees"?  What happens when a sudden cold snap, drought,  parasite, or disease knocks the wild bee numbers down or flat kills them off?  I guess we'll just skip that years production?  If you dare to read the posts at the end of the article you'll see some addition glittering jewels of colossal ignorance.

I do bring up that honeybees are not native to the Mother Earth folks that pine for the past.  They normally have the deer in the headlights look as they stutter and try to correct me.  I then bring up the "white man's fly" reference if they persist.  I'm not concerned about losing them as a friend.  If they were a friend we'd already come to an understanding of the others position long ago.
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T Beek
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 04:37:28 PM »

Sigh....I was going to provide an analysis to Haddon's obvious confusion on several points (ignoring science is an epidemic, thousands? of years of Migratory Beekeeping??) then saw the next post and decided to refer this to the COFFEE HOUSE instead where its "certainty of gap-ridden logic, bigoted conclusions and just plain nastiness" seem destined to wind up.



Cheers to the understanding of others positions  cheer  We can only hope.
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D Coates
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 06:05:19 PM »

"Cheers to the understanding of other positions"  For one who claims to be so open minded why is judgement on others positions passed so quickly?  You don't understand me nor my positions.  Must we all agree, can we not have our own thoughts?  To complain about the nastiness but in the same breath to call others thoughts as "gap-ridden logic, bigoted conclusions" seems humorously ironic.

Hypocrisy:  Simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches.  Can you honestly not see it?

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fshrgy99
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 09:59:54 PM »

Well, I don't think a lot of the article which says basically, 'feral bees are better pollinators'. How mysterious bee disease is related to that observation remains unclear. How feral bee habitat will be re-established is the real mystery.

My principle concern (and hope) right now is whether I'll see any girls doing cleansing flights and house keeping on Wed, Thurs and Fri when the forecast says we'll be 4 degrees above freezing .... finally!
 
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T Beek
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 04:47:48 AM »

"Cheers to the understanding of other positions"  For one who claims to be so open minded why is judgement on others positions passed so quickly?  You don't understand me nor my positions.  Must we all agree, can we not have our own thoughts?  To complain about the nastiness but in the same breath to call others thoughts as "gap-ridden logic, bigoted conclusions" seems humorously ironic.

Hypocrisy:  Simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches.  Can you honestly not see it?



D Coats: RUKIDDING?  When did I ever claim to be open minded? Wink  I do call a spade a spade however.  

You see, this is part of the problem, you LOVE to ASSUME that you know what I'm talking about but then you open your mouth and its too obvious you don't.  

Have you asked 'yourself' the same questions as you just asked above?  Do you even bother to read what you write before pushing send or post?  You do realize that others see it, right?  

If so I stand by what I said and "challenge you" to use a bit more discretion, common respect and courtesy toward others and I'll try to just ignore you when you fail.  DEAL?

Admittedly I can't tolerate bully's and react strongly (after all, the mods can't see it all and just let some ride down the road) whenever confronted with one.  If you've seen my posts you would know exactly where I'm coming from in that regard.  I believe you are a web-bully D Coats and its way to easy to bully people on the web, so I react.  

Honestly I'd much rather ignore such 'certainty of thought' as I prefer debate with intelligence instead of arrogance, but you had to add your rant to the conversation which in the end added nothing but your low opinion of those whom you disagree with.  So sad.  Sad

You definitely bring out the worse in me.  What's your excuse?  grin

Now go back and read the article again  Wink
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 05:09:43 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 03:36:03 PM »

other than I dont have time to re read the full article but I welcome any criticism from anyone.
T beek remember I am from the Mississippi delta and I love to argue.
And I took pure offense to the bigoted conclusions reference in the same statement with my name.
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T Beek
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 04:05:29 PM »

bigot; a term of insult used by the Normans, apparently a Norman oath. 1) a person who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion etc. 2) a blind intolerance to differing opinions.  See ZEALOT
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fshrgy99
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 08:21:10 PM »

Hmmm, seems chilly in here.

Just sayin .....

« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:31:29 AM by fshrgy99 » Logged
T Beek
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 08:33:39 PM »

fshrgy99; you have my sincere apology  embarassed 

As you already know, our winters are long and perhaps the fever has taken hold of me a bit to tight this season.  Sorry.
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 08:37:39 PM »

Do we have a complaint against the mod staff T?  Watch what you wish for, sometimes they come true.
As for everyone else,if you need to resort to name calling,be put on notice this thread has my attention and it's been a long winter for me too!! I could use a little excitement.
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T Beek
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 04:43:31 AM »

Nope, no complaining from me, not my style buzzbee.  If I have a bone to pick I take it up directly, which has gotten me into trouble enough on BeeMaster

I may have pointed out earlier that the 'mods don't always see' or are watching everything.  Is that what you are referring to?  If so, there was no offense intended, please don't assume there was.  I apologize for any offence that was perceived.

I know the mods are busy (I've done time as a mod myself) but if I had a 'wish' it would be that instead of going after just the one complained about, dig a bit deeper into the petitioners to locate the cause of some of these skirmishes, sometimes the complainant needs a little discipline too.  Just saying its never just black or white.

THANKS for watching.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 05:24:17 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 03:06:30 PM »

Do you remember that in spring you had to scrape the dead bugs off the windscreen, you needed to make sure you had lots of screen wash for the bugs in summer. Do you still need to do it these last few years... whats happened ? I,m a motorcyclist the last few years in the UK the bug harvest on the visor certainly is down...  bees are bugs and something  has killed most of the bugs..
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2013, 04:08:48 PM »

Yes, yes, you are correct;  My home is surrounded by lakes, rivers and forest and very few farms.  The number of mosquito's (we all notice them) alone has dwindled significantly along with many varieties of birds that were common just a few years ago.  Most GOOD bugs, with exception of those we call pests (flies, grasshoppers, earwigs, cutworms, slugs, those darn imported Japanese beetles that replaced our local lady bug and the like) have been dwindling for years.  It wasn't too long ago that from sundown until roughly 9PM, going outside without bug protection could be a serious error during the summer.  It hasn't mattered for quite a while now.

Honeybees are the "ultimate' socialist insect, perhaps they along with life in general are just rebelling against capitalism.  grin

Humanity has seen fit to cause damage to the world (LIFE) and make life miserable for lesser (?) creatures for most of our existence, why should the honeybee, or ourselves for that matter be any different?

The great economist Arthur Pigov argued that "We'd probably do a lot less damage in the world if we had to pay for it."  It seems to me, we are NOW  Sad.
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fshrgy99
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 01:55:06 PM »

Yes T,

I saw a quote on a site (might have been robo's) earlier today

something like

"When the last tree is cut, the last river poisoned, and the last fish dead, we will discover that we can’t eat money…”

I also saw a video of an administrator responsible for the propogation of systemic pesticides talking about fighting starvation ... funny he didn't talk about corporate profit margins or how they were getting their food to 3rd world areas .... huh
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T Beek
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 02:41:25 PM »

Yeah, profit margins aren't for us amateurs.  NO MORE SECRETS!  

As for hunger, it has nothing to do with lack of food, it is only a lack of distribution and can easily be eliminated with a LAND VALUE TAX system.

Trust 'nothing' that doesn't see the light of day regularly, except 'some' mushrooms  Wink.

I 'may' have made that statement too, it goes back a while I'm sure (paraphrasing Whitman perhaps?) but I say stuff like that all the time.  Just ask my wife  grin
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 03:06:02 PM by T Beek » Logged

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