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Author Topic: Starting package on small cell  (Read 1391 times)
LKBruns
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« on: September 14, 2014, 05:16:36 PM »

I tried searching the forums and can't find a direct answer to my question.  Can I start a package on small cell foundation?  AND if I can ... Can I alternate it with empty frames that have starter strips.  Will all of this confuse them?

I want to help them start but don't want to end up a mess.

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beeman2009
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2014, 09:01:43 PM »

I have started several packages on small cell foundation with success. I would not recommend any foundation-less frames until they draw out a full box of comb. Then add 1 or 2 to the center of the brood nest between 2 frames of brood.

Hope this helps.
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All things may be lawful, but not all things are advantageous.

Beeman2009
Jim 134
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2014, 09:05:19 PM »

Small cell and natural cell are not one of the same.


        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 12:18:09 AM »

I like small cell personally. and the answer is yes, you can of course start a package out with small cell.
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OldMech
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2014, 01:28:21 AM »

As already stated, Yes you can..
  if you wish to use foundation-less be prepared to straighten/fix the comb if the bees decide to draw it differently than you have hopes for.  Everyone acts like its the end of the world if the ladies cross comb..  it isnt, just fix it.. I do freely admit it IS a pain I could do without, but then..  Paying for foundation i do not need is MORE of a pain! grin
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39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.
Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2014, 10:10:44 AM »

>Can I start a package on small cell foundation?

Yes.

>Can I alternate it with empty frames that have starter strips. 

In the brood nest yes.  In the supers no.

>Will all of this confuse them?

In the brood nest no.  In the supers yes.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression
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Michael Bush
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jayj200
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 09:54:44 AM »

foundationless is a pain

It maybe ok for the brood chamber. but not if your using an extractor.

crush and strain is a pain
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 12:34:25 PM »

foundationless is a pain

It maybe OK for the brood chamber. but not if your using an extractor.

crush and strain is a pain
That is correct for deep frames. I use all mediums and many of my frames that I run through my motorized extractor are foundationless. Never had a problem with any of them and I run the motor at the max speed for quite a while to dry them out as much as possible. The last frame that blew out a couple of years ago was a cracked plasticell foundation that was that way from the factory and I figured that once the bees had drawn it out, it would be fine. It was not that bad of a crack, did not go to the sides of the plastic. It was also the only cracked plasticell foundation that I have ever had out of at lease 600 of them installed.
Jim
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 07:36:22 PM »

>foundationless is a pain

I think it is far simpler and less work than foundation...

>It maybe OK for the brood chamber. but not if your using an extractor.

I extract foundationless all the time.

>crush and strain is a pain

I think I can crush and strain ten supers of foundationless faster than I can extract ten supers of any kind of foundation or foundationless.  Where is the pain?  it's easier to cut a comb out than to uncap it and easier to crush it than to put the frame in the extractor and then take it back out after you spin it...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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jayj200
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2014, 10:03:02 AM »

yes ten twenty years experience vs new bee
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OldMech
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 12:35:51 AM »

yes ten twenty years experience vs new bee

   Not at all...  it just has a lot to do with common sense..  if i was to put foundation less frames in my extractor after uncapping them, and turn my extractor up to WOW, i would blow out a lot of frames..  I run them at half speed for a few minutes before turning them up..  I lost one frame last year, and I did not blow out a single foundation less frame this year.. I DID have the wax peel off of a piece of Duragilt while extracting. I have (currently) 40 hives, 3/4 of my frames are foundation less. When i first got my own hives, i was too poor to afford anything that was not ESSENTIAL, so I went with no foundation. I have no regrets at all..  But, someone who is less determined and has less common sense would have had seizures...
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39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.
Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 08:01:40 AM »

>I DID have the wax peel off of a piece of Duragilt while extracting

I have seen that as well... although it was Duracomb... same but with no metal strips.  I've blown out plenty of wired wax over the years.  I've seldom blown out a foundationless frame, not because they are stronger but probably because I was careful, which i should always be...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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OldMech
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 10:55:11 AM »

>I DID have the wax peel off of a piece of Duragilt while extracting

I have seen that as well... although it was Duracomb... same but with no metal strips.  I've blown out plenty of wired wax over the years.  I've seldom blown out a foundationless frame, not because they are stronger but probably because I was careful, which i should always be...


   Common sense is fading away.  I still blame myself when I do something stupid.. Amusing those watching me has become a normal state of affairs. 
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39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.
rookie2531
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 05:02:15 PM »

Last meeting I went to, they were talking about combining moneys to buy bulk foundation. I asked if anyone used foundationless and they all said no, some even asked me what I was talking about, thought I was talking about TBH. Even the crush and strain guys use foundation. I told them I started and loved it, but I haven't extracted them yet, so I didn't advocate too extreme.
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Dallasbeek
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 05:31:30 PM »



   Common sense is fading away.  I still blame myself when I do something stupid.. Amusing those watching me has become a normal state of affairs. 
[/quote]

Why is common sense so uncommon?  ( think someone smarter than I am first asked that question.)

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OldMech
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2014, 06:59:13 PM »



   Common sense is fading away.  I still blame myself when I do something stupid.. Amusing those watching me has become a normal state of affairs. 

Why is common sense so uncommon?  ( think someone smarter than I am first asked that question.)


[/quote]


   Think it has a lot to do with the Govt trying to make anything that requires common sense child safe or illegal...


Last meeting I went to, they were talking about combining moneys to buy bulk foundation. I asked if anyone used foundationless and they all said no, some even asked me what I was talking about, thought I was talking about TBH. Even the crush and strain guys use foundation. I told them I started and loved it, but I haven't extracted them yet, so I didn't advocate too extreme.

   I have been told many times over the years that i would soon give up on foundation-less ..   I do not disagree. As soon as someone wants to BUY me a whole bunch of foundation I will use it!!   Until that happens I will keep right on allowing the bees to build whatever they want.. 
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39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.
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