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Author Topic: Possible cutout...  (Read 2036 times)
Intheswamp
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« on: February 13, 2013, 05:11:50 PM »

JP, Scott...ya'll are nuts!  I just got through watching ya'll's latest videos. grin  Not to give ya'll the big head or anything, but this newbee is still amazed at how ya'll work with the bees without protection!  I know it's not always like that, but even the calm bees sting.  What deodorant do ya'll use?  Do you gargle with Bee Quick?  You gotta have some secret there!  laugh 

I did a removal last year when it was pretty hot...rather than a long-sleeve shirt I opted for a t-shirt...got about a dozen stings (calm bees) so it wasn't too bad, BUT...I still wore my veil.  I think I've just got an aversion to the thought of a face sting.  shocked  Closest I've come is one to the side of my adams apple.  Yelp, besides being nuts...ya'll are crazy...my hat's off to ya'll!!! cheer

Ok, now since I've got ya'll all buttered up....the questions!!!!

I've got a guy that has two colonies in outside walls of an older rundown house that he's rehabbing.  He wants me to get them out.   The larger (mother?) colony is chest high while the other will require a short ladder.  Access would be from outside through the wall.  The wall is white asbestos(?) siding and some diagonal 7/8" lath sheathing.  We could feel the heat from both colonies on the inside wall.  Owner doesn't care if we demolish that part of the wall sheathing...he will repair. 

My mentor and I looked at it last Saturday and he doesn't really want to do it...cutting into the wall seems a bit more than he wants to do.  But, he's 80+ and has mobility/lupus issues....the ground around the house has been churned up by a backhoe or something so it really wouldn't be good terrain for him.  So, I'm trying to decide whether I can tackle this by myself.

It was cool while we were there so not many bees flying but the owner did say that they had not bothered him while he was working close to them...said he worked within 3-4 feet of them. 

My basic tool to get through the 7/8" sheathing would be a circular saw as I don't have a sawzall.  How do the bees respond to saws?  Do you give them extra smoke before you start?...a few puffs all along or when they seem to be getting restless?  It seems from ya'll's videos that they pretty much don't pay the saws a lot of attention, but...?

The two colonies are about 30' apart, around a corner from each other.  Should I be concerned with one trying to rob the other one when I open the first one up?  I'm thinking that it would be best to go for the largest one first.

Handling the comb with bees attached...  I've watched ya'll handle comb that is covered with bees.  I know that this has got to be much better for the brood for the nurse bees to stay attached but how do you do it...simply just go really slow and allow the bees to move out of your way?

Temperature...what do ya'll think should be the lowest temperature to do a cut out?

Feedback or encouragement is welcomed! Smiley

Ed
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 05:18:29 PM »

I would not intentionally cut into asbestos.  I would go in from the inside.  If you do have to cut some asbestos, do it with a gas powered saw, and keep a good flood of water on the cut to keep the dust from flying.....but I wouldn't do it.

deknow
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 06:42:17 PM »

Don't worry about me cutting into asbestos.  If I decide to do this cutout I will break the shingles off the side of the house rather than cutting them...creating as little dust as possible.  The asbestos issue is one of the things bugging me about the removal.  I guess I could carry a spray bottle of water with me and squirt it just as I break it off....mask on, of course.  I just don't know about it....

Ed
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 07:02:29 PM »

Swamp, remember that if you charge at all for the removal you are supposed to have a special asbestos handling license and permit. That said, you definitely wouldn't want to cut it but rather remove it shingle by shingle starting at the top and gently prying it away. Asbestos shingles are quite fragile and can easily snap spewing fragments as they do. It's crazy to see how many cautions you need to take to work with asbestos these days as we wouldn't even wear dust masks back in "the day"...we just didn't know better. If at all possible, go from the inside.

Robbing is always a possibility and really need to be handled on a case by case basis. Try not to cut through the honey comb areas any more than needed and keep lots of smoke going. Don't smoke straight into the colony much as that may agitate the bees and will certainly get the queen running. Smoke around the colony.

Yes, start with the more populous colony first.

My 2 cents.
Scott
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 07:31:14 PM »

Hey Swamp, I'm a newbie so no advice for the removal, but have been in the construction trade for about eighteen years. Take the advice of the previous guys and go in through the inside as even breaking the asbestos tiles will release fibers in to the air. Then you will need permits to be able to bring it to the dump along with extra fees...
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 11:33:52 PM »

I would tell the home owner I would remove them from the inside or he could find someone to do it from the outside.

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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 01:06:08 AM »

I hear ya on the permits and licenses, Scott.  So far this is an educational venture for me...$$ hasn't been spoken of.   I know where you're coming from about the asbestos...I grew up in a house covered in it, as did lots of my friends and nobody ever thought anything about it.  In our area I'm not really worried about being inspected or anything.   But, it sounds like you and iddee and Plan-B are all on the same page as for going in from the inside.  Not only safer but it would be much easier to go from the inside.  The colony below the window is behind some kitchen cabinets but they appeared to possibly be movable.  There's some thin paneling on the walls.  The other colony to the side of a window would be a gimme from the inside...sheetrock in a small (storage?) room.  Most of the sheetrock is already shot...just not where the bees are and the guy doesn't want to go into it....I mean, the ceiling is falling in and he doesn't want to cut into the sheetrock on the wall.  rolleyes  With both colonies you can see the interior walls bulging a tad.

The house sits beside some railroad tracks kind of at a dead-end.  Kind of a creepy place like you could open a closet door and a decaying body would fall out on you or something. 

I haven't given the owner a yea or nay on it yet.  I may call him and tell him if I can go in from the inside I'll do it....otherwise, nope.  I'm not interested in snorting asbestos...the older I get the less I'm inclined to take risks that I used to wouldn't give a second thought to.  Wink

Here's a couple of shots of the house....  Ed


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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 05:44:34 PM »

I'm not sure of the implications of ingesting rather than breathing asbestos....but I don't think I'd be willing to even keep the comb once the shingles are being torn up.  If it can be done from the inside and not stir up asbestos, then have at at...but otherwise, I would pass.

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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 10:31:53 AM »

It sounds like ingested asbestos is eliminated from the body within a few days BUT....there are "buts" sprinkled in there in places.  I'd err on the side of caution...I wheeze enough as it is.  rolleyes

I'm going to call the guy today and tell him I'll take'em out if I can get them from the inside, otherwise I'm moving on.  The one in the kitchen (the one below the window in the pictures) will require the kitchen counter to be moved...I don't think that would be too big of a chore.  The other one (beside a window) just has some crumbly looking sheetrock over it.

We'll see....

Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »

I would definitely go from the inside for two reasons. first the asbestos as stated. second it will reduce the problem of frenzy robbing from the other hive. if you do the job start on one early in the morning and have any demo of cabinets done  the day before. so I would go for the easy one first and then remove the cabinets for the second hive on the same day I finish the first then go back and start the second hive early the next day will it's cool again. I try to remove hives on cool days starting as early as possible. If the owner is rehabbing the house He will be removing the bad drywall anyway so definitely go from the inside.

John
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 11:19:23 AM »

I talked with the guy again last night and told him I couldn't take the bees from the outside due to the asbestos.  He wasn't necessarily happy about going from the inside but he wants the bees gone so he agreed to a removal from inside.  Apparently his two main concerns are that bees will fly into other parts of the house and that it will cost him $$$ to repair where I cut into the interior walls (even though one wall looks like it needs repair anyhow)....I think he's planning on residing the house anyway so if I had gone through the outside walls he would cover that up with his intended siding.  Repair will be his only expense since I'm not charging him anything on these removals.  Before I get scolded for not charging...first thing is I don't think this guy would pay to start with.  These are my first removals from a dwelling and will be some a good experience (I hope) and good practice for me and I'm not responsible for repairs.  I also really would like to have these survivors.

This all brings up a question.  Since I'm not responsible for repair and the owner is concerned about repair costs (on something that already needs repair) I think I need to get some type of removal agreement signed with the owner stipulating that I'm "not responsible for...".  Anybody got any suggestions on this?

As mentioned earlier, about the only cutting tool that I have is an old circular saw.  One colony is covered with sheetrock and I can probably pick up a drywall handsaw for that.  The other colony is thin paneling...I'm not sure how it is fastened to the studs...possibly stapled, possibly nailed....I don't know whether to try to remove by cutting or removing fasteners or simply cut into where I think I need to.   Maybe it's time I got one of those JP endorsed Harbor Freight oscillating tools....is it the single speed job or the variable speed one....me thinks the single speed. Smiley

Both colonies have a window near them but I will need more lighting (electricity is available).  Will the bees be more attracted to the artificial lighting that I supply or will they be more drawn to the windows?    I'm figuring on covering doorways leading out of the rooms where the bees are with plastic to try and keep them from scattering through the house.

One thing I'm wondering about is whether the comb will be attached to the interior, exterior, or both walls.  The cut out me and my mentor did last fall out of a stall wall was attached to the "cool side"...the side away from the heat of the sun.  If that is the case here then the combs will be attached to the wall covering that I will be removing.  The combs in the stall wall were deep and narrow...built at 90-degrees to the wall surfaces, spanning the wall cavity from wall surface to wall surface.  If this is the case with these colonies then again I will have a lot of narrow comb to rubber band in frames.

It will be two weeks before I can do the cutout...he wants to be on-site when I work and he can't be there next weekend.  I figure waiting 2-3 weeks might be better for the bees anyhow...something tells me that we will have a light flow going by then.  Now to get my gear rounded up...

Lot's of points hit on in this post....feedback on any of them is *always* appreciated!!!!!
Thanks!!!
Ed

« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 06:17:37 PM by Intheswamp » Logged

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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 11:46:28 AM »

All is learn as you go except one VERY important note. If I feel the slightest need for a contract from the client, I refuse the job. No colony of bees is worth a legal hassle.
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 04:22:15 PM »

Iddee makes a good point, if the owner is nervous about cutting inside maybe ask the owner to remove the outside osbestos,  otherwise go with your gut and walk away. 
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2013, 05:31:40 PM »

Lots of very good advice given here Ed. The guy should roll out the red carpet for you seeing you are not even charging him. If he is being stubborn and giving you even the slightest bit of attitude I would walk.

He would likely have to pay anyone else to remove them just remember that.

Stay in the driver's seat my man, rule #1 on cut outs!

Start reasonably early, say 8 or 9 o'clock and use the natural lighting form the windows if you can. By all means open them if you can.

Sheetrock saw for the sheetrock and you may likely have sheetrock or something else behind the paneling, if not you have received a gift!

Work the job like you are getting paid and have done this a million times. If you do, he will refer you!

As for the robbing goes, this may become an issue but if you keep honey drippage to a minimum and place honey comb in containers with a lid you can minimize the robbing. Of course bees flying all over the place and all over you makes for better videos but heh!  grin

Have lots of fun, rule #2.


...JP
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 07:02:43 PM »

The guy's attitude isn't a bad one by any means but he did voice his desires about going in from the outside when we first looked at the bees.  He's going to re-side the house and I imagine he was thinking it wouldn't be any added expense if the holes were on the outside.  I was just trying to think ahead of the game on getting some type of a written agreement...CMA up front. Wink

JP, we plan on meeting at the house Saturday week @ 9pm.  I'll size him up one last time before I go in and be sure I haven't misread him...he seems like a country boy with no pretenses.   I'm not sure he'll hang around for the festivities or not, though Wink ...hopefully the bees won't get to flying too much.

I'll see how the lighting goes.  Both colonies are on the north sides of the house and under a canopy of trees so it also shady.  I'll bring a couple of LED lanterns in case I need them.  And I'll definitely open the windows if I can.

I may have a gift with the paneling...  Seems I recall the owner talking about seeing some comb through a crack in the paneling.  I'll take all the breaks I can get! Wink   (fingers crossed)

"Stay in the driver's seat..." and "...work like you're getting paid...".  Great advice, JP.  Thanks!  I think those mental notes will be good at getting my confidence level up, too!

I'll be sure and carry a couple of extra buckets for honey comb and hand washing.   JP, you definitely seem convinced that I should open the windows if possible.  I respect your expertise here and not trying to argue with the teacher, but... Smiley  If I open the window the bees will fly back and forth (no problem) but that would give the robbers easy access, too.  Other than the inside bees building up on the glass what would happen if the windows were left closed?  When a large number gathered at the window I could vac them up.  As for robbing coming from outside the house through the regular bee entrance I could hang a piece of #8 mesh over the entrance and probably fool the robbers for a while.  Unless I hear otherwise I will be opening the windows per your suggestion. Wink

Videos??.....we'll see...there's always a chance to win America's Funniest Home Videos I guess. grin   shocked

Thanks!
Ed 

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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2013, 08:49:40 PM »

If you use lights, cover them with clear RED tape. Bees can't see red.

When going from the inside, it is dark inside and light outside. The bees will go out the window, but not in. The ones in the nest, 95% of them will fly to the outside, not the inside. I have had families sit in the room and watch as I did the cutout and never have a bee come near them.

This time of year, robbers are NOT a problem worth considering. In August, they would be a big problem.

Again, if he wants it done from the outside, let him remove the asbestos and then work from there.
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2013, 09:02:27 AM »

Thanks for the feedback regarding the light.

Ed
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2013, 03:06:36 PM »

Yup, open the windows to let the light in and bees out. If you use any light other than red as Iddee mentions they will cover it. You don't want that.


...JP
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2013, 06:10:56 PM »

the information from the many beemasters on this thread is darn good, first year at cutouts and swarms and the advise on the red lights I would have learn the hard way.  tks
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 10:56:56 AM »

We were supposed to have gotten one of these colonies out this past weekend, but highs below 50f and lows below 30f didn't seem like good weather for the bees.  I notified the owner and he was ok with the delay.  Now I've gotta call him back and see if this weekend is good for him.

Thinking about the removal made me recall the removal we did out of the stall wall last year.  The picture below is from that cutout last year, the little bit of honey was at the top edge of the combs and the combs were vertical.  In this removal we removed entire combs, vacuumed bees off, and then cut the comb to fit into the frames.   I may be wrong, but for some reason I'm thinking the comb in the upcoming cutout may be situated vertically much like the stall comb was.

Even though it was very warm (I worked in a t-shirt) during the stall cutout I'm thinking we should have left more bees covering the comb when we cut and rubberbanded them.  Seems the bees hauled out a LOT of larvae over the next few days after we got them home...I'm not sure if this was from the brood getting chilled or what....??

For this cutout I'm hoping to use the vacuum as little as possible...hopefully just going for the guard bees and leaving as many bees as I comfortably can on the comb when I rubberband them.

Any suggestions on doing things differently? 

Thanks,
Ed

Here's the thread from the stall cutout... http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,38909.20.html

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n153/intheswamp00/Honey%20Bees/Petrey%20Dairy%20Farm%20Bee%20Removal/IMG_3531a-1.jpg
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"Always go to other people’s funerals, otherwise they wont come to yours." - Yogi Berra
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