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Author Topic: Insulation and Heat  (Read 5357 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2013, 08:33:13 AM »

If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  grin

Your opinions seem to  indicate that failure in beekeeping is the accepted  norm in northern America. Failure compared to Apis Mellifera Mellifera left to its own devices in unmanaged decidous forests

Not at all, that is your assumption.  We've all got them  Wink

What I am saying (and you keep missing) is that 'without beekeepers' honeybees would not proliferate as far or as much as you want to believe. 

That's all, and there's no way to prove either of our positions until humans stop keeping bees, so the debate can go on forever, if you want it to.  Although 65 million years of archaeological evidence lean heavily toward the points I've expressed, especially those eons before people arrived on the scene.

Its OK to believe something else you know.  I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything but thus far your arguments have not detoured my own belief  grin  But you can keep trying if you want, I don't mind.

"TRUTH DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU'RE STANDING" 
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Finski
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« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2013, 08:53:36 AM »


65 MILLION YEARS!

It seems that truth is escaping us with light speed?




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derekm
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« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2013, 09:12:25 AM »

If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...


As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  grin


Your opinions seem to  indicate that failure in beekeeping is the accepted  norm in northern America. Failure compared to Apis Mellifera Mellifera left to its own devices in unmanaged decidous forests


Not at all, that is your assumption.  We've all got them  Wink.  

What I am saying (and you keep missing) is that 'without beekeepers' honeybees would not proliferate as far or as much as you want to believe.  

That's all, and there's no way to prove either of our positions until humans stop keeping bees, so the debate can go on forever, if you want it to.  Although 65 million years of archaeological evidence lean heavily toward the points I've expressed, especially those eons before people arrived on the scene.

Its OK to believe something else you know.  I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything but thus far your arguments have not detoured my own belief  grin  But you can keep trying if you want, I don't mind.

"TRUTH DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU'RE STANDING"  


read "The Dark European Honey Bee" pages 10 to 18
 By Friedrich Ruttner, Eric Milner, John Ellis Dews, John E Dews.

in that the authors relate: that early in 17th century, in north america, after importation to east coast, a big feral population rapidly established itself and spread west faster than the  human colonists.
(a precise of page 16  4th paragraph)

try this link
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=j0PRwmw5scwC&q=northern+limit#v=snippet&q=northern%20limit&f=false
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 09:26:22 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Farm 779
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My bees can 'hold it' !


« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2013, 09:52:05 AM »

Finski,

You do not need an electrical ventilation system. All I require are two 10 cm plastic pipes located at either end of the cave and protruding through the ground. One pipe out of the ground is higher than the other. This simple difference in elevation provides an air current when the slightest of breeze blows over the pipes. I will use this theory on my bee hive lids to help promote condensation venting.

In arid places, this method is used to capture water (humidity) stored in the air.

Cheers,
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Farm 779
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T Beek
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« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2013, 10:21:22 AM »

derekm; Thanks for proving my point (s).
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Finski
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« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2013, 10:37:55 AM »


I will use this theory on my bee hive lids to help promote condensation venting.


You use theory, I know the practice. Remember me when you bottom is full of dead bees.

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Finski
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« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2013, 10:40:35 AM »


 a big feral population rapidly established itself and spread west faster than the  human colonists.
(a precise of page 16  4th paragraph)



We talked a while ago abojut about thaat spreading, and that 16  4th paragraph is not correct.
January 18, 2013, 05:40:43 AM


Bee expanding history of USA

http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html

The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.).
 Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.

"Although some claim that Tabitha ‘Grandma’ Brown, who owned and ran a school and orphanage in Forest Grove, Oregon, had a honey bee tree at the school in 1849 (Williams 1975:34) the first evidence I could find of honey bees in Oregon was the August 1, 1854 Oregon Statesman, which included a story about John Davenport of Marion county who brought home a hive of honey bees from back east. These were considered the first in the area. Unfortunately, it was later reported that this first hive of honey bees did not do well (Williams 1975:34).

 

Honey bees came to California almost simultaneously with the Oregon honey bees. There is just no support for the story that the honey bees brought to Sitka, Alaska in 1809 by Russian missionaries and traders were carried down to Fort Ross, California in 1812 (Essig 1931:265-266; Free 1982:117). Much more likely is the story told in an 1860 letter from F. G. Appleton, a San Jose apiarist, that says the first honey bees in California arrived in March 1853. There were 12 swarms purchased in Panama, which were carried across the “Isthmus and thence by water to San Francisco” (Essig 1931:268). Only one hive survived the trip and that hive was taken to San José where it produced three successful swarms that first year.

.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2013, 10:57:27 AM »

I’m probably going to have to side with T Beek about the survival of bees in the Great Lakes region.  We have a tough climate, and Wisconsin is even tougher.  Without bee keepers and their escaped swarms, I doubt there would be any bees here.  When I get swarm calls in the spring, the folks are absolutely amazed to see such a thing.  They typically go on and on about how they’ve lived in Michigan for 50 years and have never seen such a thing!  They’re amazed like little children to see a swarm of bees.  
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piarelal
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« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2013, 11:11:51 AM »

hello Finsky! I owe you a couple! grin. So far, the figures for the total harvest of honey per colony per year (i.e. the totality of the honey that is produced by the bees before the beek take his part) that I came across varied between 187kg and 300kg and there are some accounts of beekeepers in America that at the beginning of 1900, before pesticides and today's agriculture, were reporting harvests of 100kg! Even for just 187kg is profitable to smartly insulate the hive and save around 20kg of honey for the bees(!) so that they can eat honey and build their combs. What is really profitable for the beekeeper,..and his sons or daughters! and so on..,and human society! is to work with bees that don't get ill and are attuned to their environment; I am afraid that with the shameful economics used to justify the world order today these benefits cannot be quantified and society will not be able, any time soon, to remunerate any beekeeper whose hives contribute to impollinate, free of charge, 80% of the horticultural products of the world, in the U.S alone estimated in 2003 to be worth between 18 and 27 billion $.-from The Xerces Society- And don't expect any time soon, that "AgroPharma" pays the beekeepers for their losses or society for the extermination of the wild pollinators, without which there is not horticulture. These costs are not paid at the tiller,or even better by taxing the manufacturer, but by all of us, our bees and our children. In this jungle society the profit of one are the losses of someone else or nature, now or after that. If we used this forums to organise mass plantings of melliferous flora, involve schools, jails, elderly houses... if we used facebook or else to promote it for roadway hedges,city and natural parks, ditches, ravines ..and to campain for a tax on pesticides, maybe the difference in honey harvested by a stationary hive and a nomadic one, like back in the 1900, would not be so different, or nomadism would not be worth that much: especially if a beek was paid for the already mentioned ecosystem services that his bees provide and he had to pay to move his stock, since in so doing he has been accused, in numerous occasion, of dehabilitating the bees,i.e to deplete the natural capital, the bees, on which the welfare of all present and future beekeepers, as well as our beloved insects, depend... Even then efficient insulation of the hive would matter a lot, especially for the health of the bees.
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Bush_84
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« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2013, 11:20:26 AM »

My hives are insulated, but do not have added heat.  I am really thinking of adding some spring heat as finski does.  I am considering using heat tape.  I read in another topic that he would not use heat under the hive, but rather on the top or on the side.  How do you accomplish this?  Maybe imbed the heat source into the insulation to the side of the hive?  Most of the heat tape I have seen online turns on when the temp falls below 35 f.  Is this ideal or do I want a constant source?
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.
Finski
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« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2013, 11:29:13 AM »

hello Finsky! I owe you a couple! grin. So far, the figures for the total harvest of honey per colony per year

I do not understand what you are explaineg, but is is sure that beekeeping nowadays have nothing to do 1900 beekeeping.

To speak about record years is not honest- It is dreaming.
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derekm
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« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2013, 11:44:29 AM »

derekm; Thanks for proving my point (s).

what points ?
The book I refer to shows AMM spread into  the rest of northern  america themselves  not via bee keepers, they only needed the beeks to get across the atlantic.
It shows bees spread into northern Europe by themselves not by bee keepers
The bees dont need you if they have unmanaged decidous forest.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2013, 11:48:58 AM »

I’m probably going to have to side with T Beek about the survival of bees in the Great Lakes region.  We have a tough climate, and Wisconsin is even tougher.  Without bee keepers and their escaped swarms, I doubt there would be any bees here.  When I get swarm calls in the spring, the folks are absolutely amazed to see such a thing.  They typically go on and on about how they’ve lived in Michigan for 50 years and have never seen such a thing!  They’re amazed like little children to see a swarm of bees.  
if  decidous trees thrive and can grow to full size where  were you live, bees should be able to live wild... 
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2013, 11:54:09 AM »


 a big feral population rapidly established itself and spread west faster than the  human colonists.
(a precise of page 16  4th paragraph)



We talked a while ago abojut about thaat spreading, and that 16  4th paragraph is not correct.
January 18, 2013, 05:40:43 AM


Bee expanding history of USA

http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html

The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.).
 Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.

"Although some claim that Tabitha ‘Grandma’ Brown, who owned and ran a school and orphanage in Forest Grove, Oregon, had a honey bee tree at the school in 1849 (Williams 1975:34) the first evidence I could find of honey bees in Oregon was the August 1, 1854 Oregon Statesman, which included a story about John Davenport of Marion county who brought home a hive of honey bees from back east. These were considered the first in the area. Unfortunately, it was later reported that this first hive of honey bees did not do well (Williams 1975:34).

 

Honey bees came to California almost simultaneously with the Oregon honey bees. There is just no support for the story that the honey bees brought to Sitka, Alaska in 1809 by Russian missionaries and traders were carried down to Fort Ross, California in 1812 (Essig 1931:265-266; Free 1982:117). Much more likely is the story told in an 1860 letter from F. G. Appleton, a San Jose apiarist, that says the first honey bees in California arrived in March 1853. There were 12 swarms purchased in Panama, which were carried across the “Isthmus and thence by water to San Francisco” (Essig 1931:268). Only one hive survived the trip and that hive was taken to San José where it produced three successful swarms that first year.

.


its AMM not AML ...  and I'm talking about bees moving west from the East coast, not over the Rockies i.e. Oregon or CA. Note  in Europe AMM was limited by the Urals and the Alps.,,
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Bush_84
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« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2013, 12:16:29 PM »

My hives are insulated, but do not have added heat.  I am really thinking of adding some spring heat as finski does.  I am considering using heat tape.  I read in another topic that he would not use heat under the hive, but rather on the top or on the side.  How do you accomplish this?  Maybe imbed the heat source into the insulation to the side of the hive?  Most of the heat tape I have seen online turns on when the temp falls below 35 f.  Is this ideal or do I want a constant source?

Making sure this doesn't get lost amongst the other stuff.
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.
Finski
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« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2013, 12:25:23 PM »


its AMM not AML ...  and I'm talking about bees moving west from the East coast, not over the Rockies i.e. Oregon or CA. Note  in Europe AMM was limited by the Urals and the Alps.,,

Apis mellifera L means that Linnaeus has given the scientic name.

The Italian bee USA '
Italian honey bees, of the subspecies Apis mellifera ligustica, were brought to the U.S. in 1859. They quickly became the favored bee stock in  this country and remain so to this day. Known for their extended periods of brood rearing, Italian bees can build colony populations in the spring and maintain them for the entire summer. They are less defensive and less prone to disease than their German counterparts, and they are excellent honey producers. They also are very lightly colored, ranging from a light leather hue to an almost lemon yellow, a trait that is highly coveted by many beekeepers for its aesthetic appeal.
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T Beek
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« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2013, 12:37:47 PM »

derekm; your operative word I believe is 'should' as in the bees 'should' survive without assistance from beeks.  I'm still at a 2-5 year survival "IF" we stopped keeping bees.

piarelal;  You have eloquently described why the World needs a "SINGLE TAX" or Land Value Tax.  

What if we could eliminate 'all' other forms of taxation except taxes on the use AND the abuse of LAND?  

Some top economists have theorized an end result that would provide enough revenue for our roads, schools, hospitals, parks, fire and police protection and provide the less fortunate with an income that would/could end poverty.  

Is it time for Henry George's Economic plan to finally take hold?  Could be.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2013, 12:48:22 PM »

Bush_84 I can tell you what I have done. 

First off, heat tape is supposed to be taped to pipe (copper) to dissipate the heat it builds up.  How much creative license there is to improvise, I don’t know.  As with most things electronic, if something can’t shed enough heat, it can burn up and die, or catch fire.   I have used heat tape for heating pipes and other non bee keeping stuff and I kind of doubt it would catch on fire without a heat sink, but the directions for using the stuff clearly state it is supposed to be secured to a heat sink. 

If heat tape does start to overheat in (under) a bee hive, you could probably cover it with sand to help dissipate heat.  Gardeners use this same concept to start seeds or propagate cuttings.  They bury heater cables into the soil.  The soil dissipates the heat so the coil doesn’t burn up.  The garden heater cables typically do not have a thermostat on them like the pipe heating tape.  I have also used the greenhouse heating cables, but not for bees.

I use power resistors potted in cement to dissipate the heat the resistors generate and can vary that from 0 to 36 watts with a controller.  In a well insulated hive, 36 watts really heats the bugger up.  At last check it was about 80F in my hives.  It’s below freezing outside.

The last time I heated bees, I used a little controller on which I could set the thermostat.  I set the thermostat to 88F.  My thinking at the time was to bias the hive temp up near the ideal brood rearing temperature so the bees didn’t have to do much extra work to get the hive up to brood temps (95F).  I figured if I did most of the work electrically, then the bees could cover more brood and create a bigger buildup than natural.  However I didn’t feed or stimulate brooding which was a mistake. 

Personally it makes more sense to me to use bottom heat if you can. 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2013, 04:50:33 PM »

Just came back from the hives.  I fed the hives I’m nursing some 1:1 syrup and a bowl of water.   Did somebody say you can’t feed syrup when it’s 20F and snowing outside?  We’re headed down to 7F / -14C tonight.  I think it’s an encouraging sign that the bees are lapping up the water.
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Finski
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« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2013, 02:25:16 AM »

Just came back from the hives.  I fed the hives I’m nursing some 1:1 syrup and a bowl of water.   Did somebody say you can’t feed syrup when it’s 20F and snowing outside?  We’re headed down to 7F / -14C tonight.  I think it’s an encouraging sign that the bees are lapping up the water.

You do not mind what you do.

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