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Author Topic: Insulation and Heat  (Read 7214 times)

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2013, 09:06:58 AM »
>Solar gain is not wanted because the bees should be in a tight ball and not have any brood.

But if they stay in a tight cluster, they can't rearrange stores, find stores, if they have eaten everything close, nor can they take a cleansing flight.  A warm day that allows them to break cluster can save a hive.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline T Beek

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2013, 09:44:44 AM »
The norm is not to try to winter nucs, they are to small and don't usually make it.

There is a bee keeper in Vermont with some notoriety who would probably disagree with that.  I believe Michael Palmer winters 300+ nucs every winter and he doesn’t even use foam hives!  He uses thin wood hives.  You would have to search BeeSource for the details.  I believe he’s in Northern Vermont, near the Canadian border.  He’s probably considerably colder than Finski; there aren’t any warm ocean currents to keep northern Vermont warm.  Some pretty good skiing up there too!

Palmer can make the arguments for wintering nucs better than I can.  It’s part of his idea for a sustainable apiary.  As Finski likes to point out, we have high losses of bees in the USA.  Be it mites, cold, wood hives, CCD, stubbornness, honeyballs ;), or whatever, we manage to kill a lot of bees every year.  Without a means to replace those losses, bee keeping can become very expensive and un-sustainable for many beeks here.

If you maintain some nucs of your own, it is a way to boost weak hives in the spring, start new hives, or sell surplus nucs to other local beeks.

Edward, I agree with your guidelines for wintering said nucs:  Insulate them well and make sure they're packed with bees.  When I achieve that, the nucs usually all survive. 


Michael Palmer 's NUC's in Vermont are amazing.  I have a sister that lives near his operation and have read and watched much of him over the years in different mediums.

And you're right, "BeeSource" is where you can find his methods of Wintering NUC's.  With Tower, NH close by (known as the the place w/ the "worlds worse" weather) you're also likely right about their severity of extreme weather, even compared with Finland.
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 09:59:36 AM »
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 10:20:48 AM by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 11:42:22 AM »
..............even compared with Finland.

Our winter is not hard but it is long.
Insulation ensures it that hives do not need feeding during winter. Witout insulation hive consumes 50% more food.


Insulated foam hives are cheap and very light to handle.
 
I have not a slightes idea why we should use somethind else. If you look German, Dánish or many other beehives, they use polyhives.

I wrapped once my hives into black tarpaper and that was about 45 years ago.
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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2013, 12:58:46 PM »
Finski, what is the wall thickness of those paradise honey poly hives? 

My hives have 38mm thick walls.

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2013, 12:59:53 PM »
In honor of Valentine’s Day, I’ve made something special for my bees. 




Offline rdy-b

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2013, 01:25:55 PM »
 Is that refined sugar????

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2013, 02:23:00 PM »
>In honor of Valentine’s Day, I’ve made something special for my bees. 

Sheep poop?
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline Vance G

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2013, 05:01:17 PM »
You must raise very large sheep in Nebraska~!

Offline T Beek

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2013, 05:23:08 PM »
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  :-D
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2013, 07:16:41 PM »
Now Michael, would I give sheep poop for a Valentine ’s Day treat. :shock:  OK, that was a pretty funny observation. :-D

Truth be told, I wanted to experiment with Whey as a protein substitute for spring build up so I mixed some chocolate protein shake (whey) in with some honey and formed it into balls.  I then put those balls into the 2 hives I’m nursing with electric heat.  The bees seemed interested in them at first, but now they seem to be ignoring them.  They really went after the light syrup and the WATER I put in the hives though.  

With 36 watts of heat in those 2 hives, it’s like summer in there.  The bees are actively removing the dead (to the front porch) and sucking up the syrup, but they are NOT flying which is a very good thing because it’s freezing cold outside.

Offline gjd

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2013, 08:09:30 PM »

You live in Massachusetts 41 degree. It is like Spain or Italy in Europe. ................To get wintering and insulating advices from Spain?
Sorry, you've lost me.  You're dismissing my post, which was mostly a description of actual temperature recordings, because you think the climate of north-central Massachusetts is like Spain or Italy?




Offline Farm 779

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2013, 09:31:12 PM »
I can see where a hive would freeze with ice on the inside. Condensation. I live where we have sustained winds over +35 mph with temperatures of -15 F for days on end. Even a proper vented hive can experience unusual drafts within the hive, swirling snow or high hive humidity.

My approach is more extreme perhaps. I have 10 frame Langstroth, that I wrap in 6 mm mylar backed bubble wrap, 2-deeps (+90 lbs stores), 1-small super filled with honey (+30 lbs), the pollen patty layer, and the sawdust quilt layer are placed inside a 2 inch rigid insulation box, with 2 inch annular space between the hive, and wrapped in black tar paper. The annular space between the hive and pink box is to shed condensation, or collect and freeze condensation in the proper environmental conditions. I have three vent points in the pink box, two  bottom, one top. My hives are positioned that in the winter solstice, they can obtain 3.5 hours of direct daylight, with the entrance oriented true south.

I understand Finski's approach. My next test will be to put my bees in a man made cave without insulation for the winter. I have a river bank I can make into a cave (by bury a CONEX).

Cheers,

Farm 779
Lazy Mountain, AK

Farm 779
Lazy Mountain, Alaska

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2013, 02:57:51 AM »

You live in Massachusetts 41 degree. It is like Spain or Italy in Europe. ................To get wintering and insulating advices from Spain?
Sorry, you've lost me.  You're dismissing my post, which was mostly a description of actual temperature recordings, because you think the climate of north-central Massachusetts is like Spain or Italy?



This is good discussion, where everybody lives.

Sun angle in Massachusetts is now the same as we have in first week of April. (35 degree) Then our snow cover starts to melt.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php


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« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:42:21 AM by Finski »
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Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2013, 03:05:00 AM »
I
I understand Finski's approach. My next test will be to put my bees in a man made cave without insulation for the winter. I have a river bank I can make into a cave (by bury a CONEX).




If it is merely a cave, bees get there bad nosema. All cellar or room wintering need good electrict ventilation.
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Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2013, 05:45:48 AM »
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  :-D

Your opinions seem to  indicate that failure in beekeeping is the accepted  norm in northern America. Failure compared to Apis Mellifera Mellifera left to its own devices in unmanaged decidous forests
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline piarelal

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2013, 06:25:54 AM »
Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States
by T.D. Seeley..Must read! :-D

Offline piarelal

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2013, 06:41:44 AM »
..and google : "unmanaged_honeybees_usa_delaney_2012". You will be directed to the warrebeekeeping forum where you can access this BBKA News article.-British Beekeeper Association-
Really thanks for all your brainstorming!! Building an energy efficient hive can really trasform beekeeping, and save the bees.

 Professor Jurgen Tautz in the amazing The Buzz About Bees pag.217 states that a strong colony of Apis Mellifera, presumably Ligustica and hived in a conventional Langstroth or Dadant, can produce 300kg of honey during a summer, although only  a small proportion of it is present at any time in the hive. The 4/5 of it, 240kg, are literally "burned" to regulate the temperature of the brood both in winter and summer and to warm the winter cluster (2 million K joules for brood rearing and another 2million Kj for the winter cluster; the combustion of 1kg of honey produces 12000kj). This means that building a hive that is only 3 to 6% more energy efficient could save the 7.5kg of wax that according to the same author the bees employ to build the 1200gr of combs of a typical nest..making a hive 10% more efficient would not also increase the honey yield for the beekeeper, and if we are a bit intelligent, the bees could build their combs, the exoskeleton of the superoganism -fondamental organ of its immune system- and be fed only honey.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:04:03 AM by piarelal »

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2013, 07:18:47 AM »
Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States
by T.D. Seeley..Must read! :-D

Almost 10 years old case. Miracle is over? - "research preserve in New York State, were studied over a three-year period, 2002 to 2005."

There are that kind of cases in many places in the world, much in Europe too. Survivors of those bees have breeded and crossed and many kind of strains have been developed.



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« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:29:10 AM by Finski »
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Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation and Heat
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2013, 07:27:32 AM »


 Professor Jurgen Tautz in the amazing The Buzz About Bees pag.217 states that a strong colony of Apis Mellifera, presumably Ligustica and hived in a conventional Langstroth or Dadant, can produce 300kg of honey during a summer,

A good yield comes from pastures. That kind of yield demands long summer and migrating hives to different pastures.

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