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Author Topic: Insulation and Heat  (Read 5436 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2013, 12:51:45 PM »

Of course and igloo is better than nothing in the winter because it protects you from the wind.  The wind is the real quick killer.  Snow and ice can also insulate you when the outside temp drops below freezing.  However it is still made of ICE and SNOW at 32F/0C.  It is still a freezer to a human body running at 98.6F. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia
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BlueBee
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:10 PM »

   FInski do I need to put a bowl of water in there too? grin


Stop drinking. That is all what I say.

You mean to tell me you’ve never observed that bees need to DRINK water when they are raising brood huh  Maybe you need to spend some more time with your bees and less time in the Capital city?

I think I will put in a bowl of water in with the bees this time. Wink
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rdy-b
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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2013, 03:57:43 PM »

 the bees create more humidity when brood cycles are in play-i hope your heaters dont
 dry up the moister past what the bees need--  60% in brood chamber is ideal--RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2013, 04:19:36 PM »

[
You mean to tell me you’ve never observed that bees need to DRINK water when they are raising brood huh  Maybe you need to spend some more time with your bees and less time in the Capital city?





I think first and I laugh tomorrow.

That pal in picture is Blue B. We use to laught together.

Laughing monkey

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:31:59 PM by Finski » Logged

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derekm
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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 04:55:44 PM »

.
This is good to read

    The Biology and Management of Colonies in Winter - CAPA Bees

www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf


this has a lot of misleading info... taking the wrong conclusions etc...

e.g. it ignores that bees at 30c have the same metabolic rate at 10C etc...
radiative losses 
convective losses
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2013, 05:45:50 PM »

AGREED!  FINSKI is full of it.............misleading information....that is grin
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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
edward
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2013, 06:03:12 PM »

but I meant those rolls of fiberglass insulation.


Yes its the same insulation.

Popular bee fore polly hive were invented. Plywood or masonite wall inside the hive then fiberglass insulation then an outer shell of painted or stained wood.
Back breaking to work with  Sad  http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/se/artikel.php?kid=8-72-106&mall=lista.php&id=22

mvh edward  tongue
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gjd
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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2013, 06:24:00 PM »

I don't think I've ever posted pictures here, hopefully these will work; the preview makes them very small.  These are temperature plots of two hives and outside shade, Massachusetts late Jan-early Feb.    Insulation when present is 2" dense polystyrene sides, same or about 6-8" fiberglass top (roughly same R).  Side insulation is not done well, with leaks on sides, tops, bottom.  Insulated surfaces and about half the uninsulated surfaces painted dark green.   Bottom entrance reducer, top small vent through insulation leading directly into top of chamber, with a wind screen in front of the vent.  Inside temperature is with probe dangling 1-2" through covered inner cover hole.  The temp there depends a lot on position of cluster.   I do not have plots for live, uninsulated hives for comparison.

First compares outside temps (blue) with insulated post-deadout (green) with insulated live Italian cluster (red).



Second is after deadout insulation removed.  Outside blue, uninsulated deadout green, insulated live red.



These are not carefully chosen or prepared plots, because I haven't worked through the data carefully.  There are lots of ways you could argue around the erratic daily variations with such a small sample, and such a localized temperature measurement in the hive. My impression is that basically the dead insulated hive warms up on sunny days slower and doesn't peak out as high before cooling starts, and cools off slower on very cold nights.  However, a live hive is so much warmer than mid- and late-winter temps that the effect of slower mid-day warming is mostly irrelevant.   I do not know how much colder an uninsulated hive would be, I can't bring myself to leave the insulation off for comparison.   But the argument is about insulation.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2013, 06:41:16 PM »

 Interesting the red hive is almost always maintaining tempp of closes to
45 degress which is there range for clustering-and temps are obviously in to porportion of the cluster size
the chart shows us that without even knowing the size of cluster-this is textbook example of bees in cluster
dont you agree--- cheesy--RDY-B
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BlueBee
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2013, 06:50:34 PM »

Good plots GJD.  My observation in my own insulated hives (about 30) is you can tell if a colony is alive or about to croak by how cold it is inside.  When your red line approaches your green line, it’s time to get real worried IMO.  When you see ice in a foam hive, it’s also time to get worried IMO. 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2013, 06:53:08 PM »

the bees create more humidity when brood cycles are in play-i hope your heaters dont
 dry up the moister past what the bees need--  60% in brood chamber is ideal--RDY-B

That is a very good point RDY-B.  There is no doubt that the heaters DO dry up the moisture inside a hive.  That is why I was asking Mr Finski if I should put a bowl of water in with me bees.  Evidently he doesn’t know. huh
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BlueBee
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« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2013, 07:25:33 PM »

OK, the laughing monkey was pretty funny, I have to admit. laugh laugh laugh   

Finski you are skilled comedian and pretty good at geography too, but what about bee keeping in a cold climate? 

Bluebee winter


Finski winter?

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deknow
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« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2013, 07:32:13 PM »

I think the question (or one of the questions) is:
"Does a cluster that is too small to keep an insulated cavity of a given size warm enough, or too small to warm up an insulated cavity of a given size have a better chance of winter survival with less insulation where it  will experience both solar gain and winter cold?"

Part of the answer depends on how much solar gain?  When?  How cold is the winter?  Are the hives covered in snow?

I think a cluster of reasonable size/volume is always heating (at least the cluster)...while solar gain is, at best, at play a few hours in the day.

There may well be some ideal insulation values for very specific criteria (cavity size, cluster size, winter temps, winter length, etc), but I'm not sure this is easily quantifiable.

deknow
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edward
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« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2013, 08:14:54 PM »

When beekeeping in harsh climates you don't want to go into the winter with hives with a small amount of bees, it better to combine to weak hives and have one strong hive in the spring rather than 2 dead hive that need to bee cleaned up.

The norm is not to try to winter nucs, they are to small and don't usually make it.

That being said some people take a gamble and try it any way.

To succeed at this it is advisable to use smaller hives or fill half the poly hive with poly boards thereby reducing the hives inner volume.
The hives should be sheltered from wind and large fluctuations between temperatures (makes the bees job easier to maintain a constant in hive climate) barns, cellars, garages or any other quiet location.

Pack the bees in snugly to succeed in keeping hives in cold climates in poly hives.

mvh edward  tongue

 pop  Let the mud fly  pop
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edward
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« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2013, 08:22:16 PM »

Solar gain is not wanted because the bees should be in a tight ball and not have any brood.

Temperature fluctuations dissolve the ball and the bees consume more food and fill there bowels and are at risk for pooping the hive.

When spring and warmer weather arrives reduce the ventilation so they can keep the hive and brood warm until the hive and weather grows bigger and warmer.

mvh edward  tongue
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Finski
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« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2013, 09:30:01 PM »

OK, the laughing monkey was pretty funny, I have to admit. laugh laugh laugh  

Finski you are skilled comedian and pretty good at geography too, but what about bee keeping in a cold climate?  

Bluebee winter




That is an example what a beekeeper can do.

And the box material! WOW!

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:55:00 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2013, 09:35:46 PM »

My impression is that basically the dead insulated hive warms up on sunny days slower and doesn't peak out as high before cooling starts, and cools off slower on very cold nights.  However, a live hive is so much warmer than mid- and late-winter temps that the effect of slower mid-day warming is mostly irrelevant.   I do not know how much colder an uninsulated hive would be, I can't bring myself to leave the insulation off for comparison

But the argument is about insulation.


Sure-

I have had insuted hives 50 years. Now I have them 40 hives.

It was said yesterday in TV news that during past 2,5 months City of Jyväskylä has had 18 hours sun.


It means nothing but I live however at latitude 60.  It is sama as Anchorage in Alaska.
You live in Massachusetts 41 degree. It is like Spain or Italy in Europe. ................To get wintering and insulating advices from Spain?

3000 km to Spain from here........

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:54:15 PM by Finski » Logged

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BlueBee
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« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2013, 12:12:08 AM »

The norm is not to try to winter nucs, they are to small and don't usually make it.

There is a bee keeper in Vermont with some notoriety who would probably disagree with that.  I believe Michael Palmer winters 300+ nucs every winter and he doesn’t even use foam hives!  He uses thin wood hives.  You would have to search BeeSource for the details.  I believe he’s in Northern Vermont, near the Canadian border.  He’s probably considerably colder than Finski; there aren’t any warm ocean currents to keep northern Vermont warm.  Some pretty good skiing up there too!

Palmer can make the arguments for wintering nucs better than I can.  It’s part of his idea for a sustainable apiary.  As Finski likes to point out, we have high losses of bees in the USA.  Be it mites, cold, wood hives, CCD, stubbornness, honeyballs Wink, or whatever, we manage to kill a lot of bees every year.  Without a means to replace those losses, bee keeping can become very expensive and un-sustainable for many beeks here.

If you maintain some nucs of your own, it is a way to boost weak hives in the spring, start new hives, or sell surplus nucs to other local beeks.

Edward, I agree with your guidelines for wintering said nucs:  Insulate them well and make sure they're packed with bees.  When I achieve that, the nucs usually all survive. 
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Finski
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« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2013, 02:33:14 AM »


There is a bee keeper in Vermont with some notoriety who would probably disagree with that.  I believe Michael Palmer winters 300+ nucs every winter and he doesn’t even use foam hives!  


Very few use foam hive in America. Europe has used them over  25 years.

I know a guy round here and he has 3000 hives. He produces foamhives and sell to half Europe.
Another guy has 1000 hives too and produces too foam hives and export them


Sure Palmer does , like all others in Canada.
Yes, I have looked Alaska hives. The same thin boxes and 50 kg winter food.

Canada uses to wrap their hives this way







Foam hives and foam solid bottom. Owner has over 1000 hives this way
Out temp -25C in video

bees wintering in finland
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 03:29:55 AM by Finski » Logged

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derekm
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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2013, 05:17:39 AM »

...
Bluebee winter



Thats as a very depressing picture.

when i compare that cold thin nuc to how warm small colony  would be a in tree hollow with 6" or more of wood on the sides,  feet of wood above and the entrance 3ft of more below it.

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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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