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Author Topic: Too powerful a government?  (Read 910 times)

Offline hardwood

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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Offline Vance G

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 02:38:56 PM »
So by these rules most of Bathhouse Barry's cabinent and associates like Bill Ayres could have been assasinated by Nixon? 

Offline kathyp

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 02:44:45 PM »
i read the paper when it came out last night and the justifications.  i have no idea how they applied (without laughing) the legal decisions of the past, to the current policy.

we have plenty of laws that you and get squishy about.  the law against torture is one.  we don't torture, but we don't want to be restricted to serving tea and cookies, so we need to define torture and our limits when we use harsh method.  

in the case of  the constitution and due process, there is no squishy place.  in spite of the fact that our founders had dealt with traitors, spies, and agents, they still gave due process to ALL citizens without exception for any bad behavior.

i can't see any legal justification for this...and it's written so broadly, that the person killed need not even be an immanent threat.  they are assumed to be a threat based on their position in the terrorist group.

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Offline ch.cool

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 05:01:15 PM »
Hi,

I grow up in communist east Germany. The Terrorist Act and all the things after that make me worry. "Back to the future"??? I think all the discussions about gun restriction are just peanuts.

Is there not a new peace price coming up?

ch.cool

Offline kathyp

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 05:13:56 PM »
Quote
Is there not a new peace price coming up?

prize?  yes.  one of the potential nominees is the little girl from Pakistan who was shot by the Taliban for encouraging other girls to go to school.

Quote
The Terrorist Act and all the things after that make me worry. "Back to the future"Huh I think all the discussions about gun restriction are just peanuts.

it is a difficult line between security and government oppression.  when presidents do things and those things are examined by congress, and then, almost always by the courts, there is less chance of oppression.  when things are done and done in secret, you have a ruler whether you recognize it or not.  it is not an accident that the party of big government is also the party of gun control.  these things go together.

unlike what happened in E Germany, our leftists can't just march in and string wire.  they have to sneak in and leave chocolate on the pillow.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline buzzbee

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 06:30:52 PM »
Goes along with the talk that nobody needs a military type weapon. These tyrannical threats are exactly why the populace needs guns!

Offline buzzbee

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 06:34:42 PM »
It's a fine line between killing Americans on foreign soil to doing it here. Americans have the right to trial before execution,PERIOD.It's a shame we want to grant Constitutional protections to foreign nationalists and take away the same due process of an American citizen. I know they were terrorists they killed,but they had never denounced their  American citizenship. They should have been captured and tried in the courts.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 07:57:51 PM »
and there is a mechanism for removing citizenship from those who are naturalized. 
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sterling

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 01:55:19 PM »
So they can kill whomever they want but have not even brought to trail the Fort Hood terrorist.

And don't think that this assignation stuff won't be applied to citizens here in the states if and when they want to. Home Land Security has already said Tea Party activist and returning solders are potential terrorist.

Offline kingbee

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Re: Too powerful a government?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 01:00:58 AM »

So they can kill whomever they want but have not even brought to trail the Fort Hood terrorist...

And don't think that this assignation stuff won't be applied to citizens here in the states if and when they want to...

The good Major is in fact still drawing his $85,000 per year salary despite not having performed any of his duties and missing his unit's movements, going now on 4 years.

There is nothing new in any of your last sentence sterling.  Between 1861 and 1865 those American citizens in the Southern United States under Union occupation were subject to government sanctioned murder reminiscant of the Phoenix program in Vietnam, along with an ethnic cleansing program called "Transportation" beyond the lines.  

The ironic thing is that there was very little "Transportation" provided to the people impacted by this latter program.  They were turned out of their homes, often in the middle of Winter when cold weather brought a halt to active military campaigning and thus provided sufficient army man power to enforce this policy.  These unhappy people were forced at bayonet point to walk cross country carrying all their possessions on their backs, that is if they were able to salvage anything from the Scallywags and Carpet Buggers who traveled with the Union Army details who were tasked to carry out this policy.  Because these citizens were mostly poor women with small children whose sons, husbands and brothers were in the Confederate Army either as volunteers or as draftees, there was little or no help available to them and absolutely no way for them to feed, clothe, or house themselves. No one really knows how many of these women, children, and old men died huddled in the woods under a pine tree or bush against the cold winter rain but it has to be in the tens of thousands.

Their crime?  Receiving or sending a letter to a loved one serving in the Confederate Army, or else failure to turn in your husband, son or brother if he came home on leave from the Confiderate Army or even deserted from same.

Remember now, this was besides the 38,000 + people (.3% more or less of the adult men in the North) who were imprisoned without trial or the benefit of a writ of habeas corpus, for speaking out against the war or GASP, who simply remained silent and were thus imprisoned for not giving lip service to the government.  Then what about the more than 300 newspaper plants that were seized by the government and shut down for printing things that the government disapproved of.  

Since Obama is always compairing himself to Lincoln, I don't see anything new in drones killing American citizens without the benefit of a trial by jury, and neither should you.  The precident is long established.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo79.html
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:06:18 PM by kingbee »