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Author Topic: I have AFB now what  (Read 4779 times)
Anybrew
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« on: February 05, 2013, 03:43:54 AM »

Hi guys, well its been confirmed that I have AFB. My poor Bee's were doing so great this year. So I had six hives and five have confirmed AFB.
I am going to move my last remaining hive to a friends house and monitor it very very closely.
Two had a small visible infection but the other three are full of it. So I have had to destroy them Cry

My hives are all plastic and are screwed together.  I have unscrewed them and have poured straight Bleach on them and scrubbed the crap out of them.  They are now soaking in a 1 to 5 ratio of bleach and water.

I don't plan to use these box's until I can perhaps get them irradiated some day.  Perhaps if I can find a Commercial guy getting some done I will send my modest 9 hives,bottoms and tops along.

I have managed to arrange for some more hives for next week Smiley  which is awesome.

Question1

My Hives were all sitting on galvanised stands,do I need to trash them too. Or would a spray with straight bleach do any good to kill any spores???

Question 2

Would the ground under the hives be contaminated with spores,should I move my apiary ten metres away??


Any advise would be really appreciated.

Cheers
Steve
One step forward and three steps back.

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Gary and Margaret - kiwimana
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 05:09:23 AM »

Hi Steve,

Sorry to hear about your AFB.

As far as the stands, I wouldn't think the spores would be able to soak into the steel, so a good clean should be fine.

See ya...Gary
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Anybrew
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 05:48:43 AM »

Hi Gary, I just don't know. The steel stands would probably be ok?? my bottom boards are Galvanised folded steel as well,maybe they would be ok too?? darn expensive too. I have bleached them too,what about excluders they are gal too??I just don't know.

Ahhhhhh AFB sux.


Cheers
Steve
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 06:37:22 AM »

Gee Steve, I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck.  Hopefully you can salvage some of your gear.

Now, I'm far from any sort of expert on AFB, but I watched a couple of youtube videos yesterday by the NSW Dept of Agriculture, done by an apiary inspector about AFB.  He wan't too concerned about contamination of his tools etc, only the hive body, frames, floor etc.  I remember that he mentioned the gamma radiation treatment for supers and frames including the combs etc and he said that bees do really well on irradiated equipment because the radiation kills all sorts of stuff besides the AFB.  You could probably find the videos fairly easily (or I could, and I will PM you with the link as I can't post links yet).  They are probably a bit depressing to watch, especially killing bees with petrol and soapy water Cry

I just looked up in my ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture (that I got today and am so proud of) about decontamination of equipment to see what it has to say.  On page 194, it suggests that decontamination treatments "include, acetic acid, ethylene oxide, heat, high velocity electron beam, gamma radiation, and hot paraffin."  It doesn't state what temperature the "heat" or "hot paraffin" has to be to be effective.

It is probably a good idea to check with your local Ag Department to see what is acceptable to them - hopefully they can recommend something that is effective and not have you running around decontaminating stuff that doesn't need to be and worrying unnecessarily.  That way you shouldn't get into trouble for doing the wrong thing either, especially with a reportable infection.
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 10:57:17 AM »

hi sorry to hear  the last hive I would destroy as well it is probably there but you can not see it yet  and I would not move it because you risk giving it to others that you don't know have bee I would be hard to be kind to your new bees   


all wood and steal can be hot waxed dipped plastic dose not live to well with 140 dc 4 15 minits frame stands can be burned with a blow torch I do have a address  4a gammer place     bleach will caroad your  metal                                                                               
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Jim 134
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 02:03:06 PM »

The only 2 thing that I know that work 100% of the time on AFB are fire and gamma radiation



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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »

I'm not sure how hot your plastic can take, but boiling in lye water is a common treatment.  The lye sopanifies all the wax and propolis and strips it down to the plastic (in your case or the wood in other cases).
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 04:52:09 PM »

.

It seems that you hives are all badly contaminated.
Small visual sings enlarge in a month very big.

You must take clean and sterilized boxes. Then you put there new foundation frames.

With artificial swarm system you may save the bees but you must destroy all frames.

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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 05:10:09 PM »

G'day Andrew,

Good on you for identifying it & taking the appropriate action.

As per Jim's advice the only way to deal with AFB is to burn or irradiate.  In your case with plastic boxes it would be crazy to burn them.

I would stick with the reliable information provided by the NSW DPI.  With the greatest of respect to the members of this forum, not all of the advice provided is suitable/legal in NSW.  The NSW DPI website is one of the best sources of info for Australian conditions.

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/livestock/honey-bees/pests-diseases

Your bees won't get reinfected through the stands.  It wouldn't hurt to move them if you have a suitable site nearby.

I had one with AFB in September & my hives are on the same site.  I'm just careful not to rest frames on the ground.

Also have a think about any other used equipment that you have.  A big cause of AFB is infected, used equipment.  I would get everything irradiated & start again.

Put a barrier system in place & stick to it.

The main source of contamination is from bees robbing honey from infected hives that are weak or dead.  Keep an eye on your hives when times are hard & feed them with sugar syrup when they run short of stored honey.

Good luck,

Yanta

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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 05:43:08 PM »

Thanks guys, there are some helpful comments there.  I have been speaking with the DPI this last fortnight and they have been very helpful.
I suspect I got AFB from robbing as the only second hand gear I have was the stuff my original bee's came in.
But saying that it may have already been one or two of them.
I stored my combs over winter and then shared them through my new colonies. Perhaps spreading the AFB spores.

I will re-site my Apiary 10 metres away I hope this helps and blow torch the stands and the metal bottom boards. 

I won't give up,as bee's are just awesome.

At least I have picked up some new skills in the Apiary rolleyes

Cheers
Steve

 
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AllenF
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 08:03:45 PM »

Don't forget that the spores are on all your tools, gear, feeders, clothes, gloves, and smoker.   You will have to irradiated or burn most everything.  A costly loss. 
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Anybrew
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 10:56:41 PM »

Thanks AllenF, yeah mate very costly indeed..............

Cheers
Steve
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 05:40:20 AM »



As per Jim's advice the only way to deal with AFB is to burn or irradiate.


Jim is  almost right. What I wrote, it is used un many countries. BUT

You have had  in Australia  for decades that you cannot use antibiot but you have cleaned disease from hives with artificial swarming.
Bad thing is that there are in Australian nature wild colonies which suffer about AFB and when weakened nursed hives rob them.

Artificial swarm system is verifyed some years ago in Swedich University and Germany and Denmark has used it.

But Australia has strict orders and according this you get compensation if you burn hives...http://theabk.com.au/article/american-foulbrood-%E2%80%93-disease-can-be-eradicated


Procerdure what to do in Australia y 2008
Preventing the spread of American foulbrood disease

www.agric.wa.gov.au/.../preventing_the_spread_of... -


Look more from google

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Finski
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 05:48:24 AM »

-

Distribution and Transmission of
American Foulbrood in Honey Bees

Anders Lindström
Faculty of Natural Resources and Agricultural Sciences
Department of Entomology
Uppsala

2006 Sweden

The distribution of Paenibacillus larvae spores, the causative agent of American foulbrood
was studied on three different levels in the honey bee system; the apiary level, the colony
level and the individual honey bee level. The increased understanding of spore distribution
has been used to give recommendations regarding sampling of adult honey bees. The
vertical transmission of P. larvae spores through natural swarms has been described for the
first time and artificial swarming as a method for control of American foulbrood have been
evaluated.
The results demonstrated that there is no practical difference in spore load between supers
and brood chambers, and that the spore load in samples of adult honey bees on the different
levels correspond to the clinical disease status of the colony. The study on individual bees
showed that spores are unequally distributed among the bees and that as more bees get
contaminated each positive bee also contains more spores. This may present a problem
when sampling from colonies with low levels of clinical disease, although the study on
colony and apiary level showed no false negatives. A model for calculating the number of
bees that needs to be sampled to detect P. larvae in a composite sample of adult bees, given
certain detection levels and proportions of positive honey bees in the sample, was developed
The swarm study demonstrated vertical transmission of P. larvae spores. Furthermore, the
artificial swarm study showed that single and double shaking are equally effective treatment
methods, and that the original disease status is of little importance for the spore load
decrease.
Keywords:


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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 05:54:51 AM »

.
In Germany 2003

research 9 years....

In Germany AFB has controlled very succesfully with artificial swarms

spores can be idetyfyed 2 year before visual symptoms emerge


     Control of American Foulbrood by using alternatively eradication ...

fingalbeekeepers.net/.../von_der_Ohe_1.pdf -
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 06:32:06 AM »

Sorry to hear about this, Steve.  Even Dr Lone is at a loss as to what to do.

It might be a step backwards, but starting again from scratch will have you with a whole new apiary.  It might take a little time to get the gear together, but one of the 'joys' of beekeeping is the time and effort you spend on it; and I'm sure you will enjoy the process.

I'd be tempted myself not to use any gear until you can irradiate it. It doesn't sound as if it would be likely for the hive stand etc to contain spores after it's cleaned, but it wouldn't hurt to make it into a temporary herb garden stand either.  Don't be feeding honey back to your bees that's gone through your extractor.  It's hard to find relevant research articles that will let us know if it lives in soil.  You could put different soil over the area perhaps?

Finski, you've brought up some interesting points.  The article on artificial swarming (which as you mentioned is not an option in Australia for AFB anyway) doesn't explain what artificial swarming is and how to do it.

I had never heard of compensation before..so that is something you ought to look into, Steve.  http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/aa198591/  Read part 5.  I wonder if there is compensation in the other states and territories?  It will mean a LOT of beaurocracy and excuses, but if you can get through that, it would go a long way to helping with the expense side of things.

Quote
I won't give up,as bee's are just awesome.


Quote of the day..!  Thanks for remaining positive.  Your experiences may help others.  AFB has been found not far from here; so we all should remember to be alert and take preventative measures.

Lone
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Anybrew
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 06:39:40 AM »

Hi Finski, yes you are correct in what you say about the use of Anti Biotic s in Australia,they are not used for AFB.  I think, you can use Terramycin under a prescription for EFB. (I think)
The treatment is to destroy the diseased Hives and either burn or irradiate equipment.

I have read the artificial swarming used in many European Countries and it appears to be common practice, very interesting .   

Thankyou again.

Cheers
Steve
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Anybrew
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2013, 06:54:54 AM »

Dear Dr Lone  laugh, thanks for your support.  The DPI have been awesome, and I have been contacting them daily seeking advice.
I agree, I will not use any of my gear until I can get it irradiated. I would easily have $1200 in plastic hives,excluders,metal bottom boards,plastic lids which I would like to save.

The DPI made me feel much better regarding the soil,hives stands etc.  In a nut shell they said,it will be fine.
As we know,the biggest spreader of AFB is US.(No not the US of A  laugh)

The robbing of ferals colonies will always happen, However they said that only hungry Bee's rob.  So well fed or heavy hives should be perhaps less likely to get it.

I think the best thing to do is if you think you have a disease contact the DPI and they will lead you through the fog of information and sought you out.  Nicely of course.

Cheers
Steve

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Jim 134
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2013, 07:28:38 AM »

I'm not sure how hot your plastic can take, but boiling in lye water is a common treatment.  The lye sopanifies all the wax and propolis and strips  it down to the plastic (in your case or the wood in other cases).

I do know at the University of Massachusetts this did not work
After 2 hours of  boiling in lye water still could find some live AFB spores.



               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »


I do know at the University of Massachusetts this did not work
After 2 hours of  boiling in lye water still could find some live AFB spores.




[/quote]

At least it works in practice.

.
Lye is used to sterilize many things in food industry.

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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2013, 09:05:20 PM »

Can you still buy lye here?   The last time we tried making soap, it was next to impossible to get.  (I guess all the meth heads bought it up)  My wife found some no name brand somewhere and went through grief to buy it. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2013, 11:53:29 PM »

Quote
Can you still buy lye here?

I'm not sure about your area, but you can get sodium hydroxide/caustic soda/drano here in most supermarkets.  Just be very careful with the stuff (gloves and eye protection etc) and add the caustic soda to the water, not the other way around or you will have a violent corrosive explosion. shocked

If you have some time and some wood ash, you can make your own potassium hydroxide just like they used to when homemade soap was the only alternative.  I seem to remember that there was a test to get the right concentration of lye involving floating a fresh egg or a potato in the solution so that about 25% of the egg/potato is above the surface.  If you google "lye water" you get a few good starting points.  I'm not sure of the effect on AFB, but lye will remove your skin pretty quick as well as unblock your sink.
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 10:49:59 AM »

> you can get sodium hydroxide/caustic soda/drano

Sodium hydroxicd = lye.
Drano = sodium hydroxide (lye), sodium nitrate, sodium chloride (salt), and aluminum

I would NOT use the Drano, but the lye is usually sold as a drain opener and is MOSTLY the same as Drano.  The metallic aluminum burns pretty hot in the Drano.  Lye seems to have gotten harder to find.  It used to be in every grocery, hardware and drugstore.  Now I have to search for it.
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 11:06:29 AM »

Just about all the beesupply houses have it
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/searchprods.asp





              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 11:02:46 PM »

Sorry to hear about the bad news mate!

As a microbiologist I suggest irradiation of everything! I would also package up all of your equipment as well and get it all irradiated... it will save you a whole lot of hassle later. AFB spores are incredibly resistant to a whole lot of things and irradiation is the only sure fire way of dealing with it! Don't take shortcuts.

Also, in regard your stands, I'd get a blow torch on to them if you can and also move them to another location - don't leave them in the location where spores could potentially be in the soil - and then, if it's feasible, make the old spot a rubbish pile and have a bonfire over it.
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 11:38:49 PM »

Sorry to hear about the bad news mate!

As a microbiologist I suggest irradiation of everything!  AFB spores are incredibly resistant to a e over it.

I agree with the "BUZZ"  but id go one step further , wait till fire danger is over and nuke the earth where they were located, i got one of those
weed burner things that run off Kerosine its great for that sort of thing you can get some that run off gas too.
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2013, 12:33:42 AM »

Hey guys,I have bundle up all my old gear and I have washed it in bleach and now double bagged it up ready for irradiation.
I have destroyed all 80 frames.
* Its great having a Microbiologist to get advise off for free COOL!

I have flamed the stands with a Propane gas torch and the earth around them.
Even though the DPI said don't bother. They assured me not to worry about moving my apiary which I am still concerned about.  I have 4 acres but the apiary is in a terrific spot.  I can hear here you all, better to move it than lose all you gear again.  ahhhhhhhhhh.

The main guy I have been speaking with is a leading Bee Scientist I expect he knows his Disease's.

The DPI have continually assured me not to worry about the apiary, saying that AFB lives in Honey and pollen and that there would not be any contamination in or on the Hives Stands or the ground.

A side note to this is that these were all new packages installed in November 2012.  They hadn't been robbed by me as they were just starting to power up. They had only been in the supers for three weeks or so.
  


« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 07:25:02 PM by Anybrew » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 05:14:12 PM »

Steve:

This is a link from the New Jersey, USA state apiarist on AFB remediation that you might find useful.

http://youtu.be/_zUXU9NI2Hg
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2013, 08:02:30 PM »

Thanks Mulesii, I watched that vid it was good.  That is what Finiski was saying that it is common practice in European Countries to shake them out.
In Aussie Land we have to destroy the colonies and we can't use terramycin(I think)

Well I have done my best.  I have moved my hive stands a short distance and there is no residue of wax or propolis to be seen.
I now realise its a bonus to have millions of ants living around my Apiary.
Even when I had six hives you would be lucky to see a dead Bee on the ground.  As there was always hungry little black ants waiting patiently with knife and forks ready to dismember them evil

Cheers
Steve

New Bee's arrive Tuesday!! from a Commercial Beek.
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2013, 01:24:50 AM »

.
HOwever.

If you see in you hive one rotten pupa and cofee color slime inside, do at once cleaning operations and move bees on new foundations.

I have made some so that before winter clustering I have shaked bees to the capped food frames. Next spring I have not seen a sign about disease.

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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2013, 02:13:42 AM »

Ok thanks Finski and everyone for the information. 
Come on Tuesday, as I miss having Bee's.

Cheers
Steve
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2013, 05:21:36 AM »

Hey guys,I have bundle up all my old gear and I have washed it in bleach and now double bagged it up ready for irradiation.
I have destroyed all 80 frames.
* Its great having a Microbiologist to get advise off for free COOL!

I have flamed the stands with a Propane gas torch and the earth around them.
Even though the DPI said don't bother. They assured me not to worry about moving my apiary which I am still concerned about.  I have 4 acres but the apiary is in a terrific spot.  I can hear here you all, better to move it than lose all you gear again.  ahhhhhhhhhh.

The main guy I have been speaking with is a leading Bee Scientist I expect he knows his Disease's.

The DPI have continually assured me not to worry about the apiary, saying that AFB lives in Honey and pollen and that there would not be any contamination in or on the Hives Stands or the ground.

A side note to this is that these were all new packages installed in November 2012.  They hadn't been robbed by me as they were just starting to power up. They had only been in the supers for three weeks or so.
  



IMHO what a waste of resources for the bees this is 1 of the main reason you irradiation so you can save the comb.




       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2013, 05:47:11 AM »

I killed them with Petrol/gas Jim,so they were no good.
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2013, 06:04:00 AM »

Who irradiates and how much does it cost?  Can you use irradiated honey?  Is there a size limit for equipment?

Lone
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2013, 10:32:28 AM »

I killed them with Petrol/gas Jim,so they were no good.


This is one of the fastest ways to contaminate a lots of wooden ware by using Petrol to kill bee. Who told you to use Petrol to  kill honey bees Huh




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« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:38:41 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2013, 03:51:20 PM »

Hey Lone,getting stuff irradiated is a real pain this way. A 1000 K trip for me and the process takes 24hrs so a two night stay in Sydney for me.(More for You)
$10 per box is the basic charge,Honey and pest are not permitted in or on combs.
All gear has to be double wrapped,any leaking of honey during irradiation will cost the customer a $200 clean up fee.
I emailed them about small lots however I have not been blessed with a reply yet.

A fair major project for only 9 box's and gear.

As far as the petrol thing goes I did it!


cheers
Steve


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Lone
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2013, 07:42:55 AM »

Before the AMA inspects me, I guess I have to confess I'm actually a nurse, not a doctor.  jail

Lone
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rawfind
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2013, 11:53:27 PM »

Hey Lone,getting stuff irradiated is a real pain this way. A 1000 K trip for me and the process takes 24hrs so a two night stay in Sydney for me.(More for You)
$10 per box is the basic charge,Honey and pest are not permitted in or on combs.
All gear has to be double wrapped,any leaking of honey during irradiation will cost the customer a $200 clean up fee.
I emailed them about small lots however I have not been blessed with a reply yet.

A fair major project for only 9 box's and gear.

As far as the petrol thing goes I did it!


cheers
Steve




I agree, if ever i am unlucky enough to get it im burning everything not messing around with it
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Lone
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2013, 07:08:14 AM »

I agree too.  It hardly seems worth it, the distance you have to travel.

You know, I have a similarly bad disease in my chooks, returned about 4 times.  Incurable, and kills 80-90% of them within 2 weeks, leaving the remainder highly contagious.  The DPI tested them twice.  I followed DPI recommendations, spelled the yard and coops for longer than the time they said the virus lives for. I managed to find lysol (which contains lye) and sprayed everything. But the next chooks I introduced got it too.  Yes there is a vaccination but very hard to get here..needs transport in dry ice 1000km.  Main trouble is the old timers who have bred chooks for over 60 years think the vaccine will spread disease to their chooks   rolleyes  So I have stopped showing for several years and locked up a few for eggs only. 

Lone
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Lone
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 07:09:03 AM »

Now that is a good question.  Can bees be vaccinated?

 huh
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Jim 134
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2013, 07:22:02 AM »

Hint: AFB is a brood disease it will not kill adult bees.



            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2013, 08:03:55 AM »

>Now that is a good question.  Can bees be vaccinated?

The thing that does the most to prevent AFB are the microorganisms, especially in the gut of the bee.  This was first documented by Martha Gilliam
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives

and more recently in this study:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188

The bacteria in the gut of the bee actually forms a biofilm that protects the gut from things like Nosema, but it also changes the pH of the gut and inhibits things like EFB, AFB and chalkbrood, all of which do better at a higher pH.  So the best thing you can do to prevent AFB is to NOT use antibiotics like fumidil and Terramycin (Oxytetracycline).  But Martha's studies and the other one as well also showed that sugar syrup disrupts the bacteria some as well and makes them more susceptible to all of those diseases.  So the next best thing you can do is not feed sugar syrup...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2013, 08:09:17 AM »

Quote
So the best thing you can do to prevent AFB is to NOT use antibiotics like fumidil and Terramycin (Oxytetracycline). 

What about AFB residing on equipment, especially inside the hive?  They say it can be latent for decades.  I am honestly concerned because there have been several outbreaks in the next town.  We bought equipment from someone who has recently lost at least 40 hives.  I just found out that some bottom boards and lids were second hand.  The offsider did the dealings with him and I guess didn't have the heart to refuse second hand gear.  He had also given him half a dozen or so stickies which are now spread through a few hives.  There are no signs of AFB in our hives, but our hive numbers are increasing, and it would be terrible to lose them all.  Any suggestions are welcome.  Should I move those stickies to the wall till the brood hatches then burn them?

I got steel to make another 5 hive tools, our 80 cents hive tools.  I thought about leaving one at each bee yard.  I am trying to clean them better with a heat gun every time I use them, but this still won't get rid of AFB spores.

Lone
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Sunnyboy2
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« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2013, 09:07:06 AM »

Anybrew,
Sorry for the grief you have gone through.  Thank you for posting.  The information and idea exchange has been a great education.  I hope that as you move into your winter that things are comming together for you again.
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