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Author Topic: Was there a truce?  (Read 2928 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2013, 07:09:44 AM »

buzz.....if your logic is about dollars, then denying a mass murderer the death penalty is the cheaper way to go. But that is another topic.

I agree about the dollars part of the discussion. The government should not be in the birth control business. And I suppose state control would be better also. But these type points are really about steps in the outright banning of abortion if you really talk the truth. These are side issues that are disguised attempts by many in total elimination of abortions. As you say..."the biggest part of abortion" is acknowledging that you have other problems also. But you pick the easiest to rationalize first.

Abortion is like gun control. If you talk about any part of it, the other side realizes that complete banning is the ultimate goal. So any discussion of banning late term abortion, not paying for it, and defunding planning parenthood, are seen as steps that many would take in the complete banning of abortion. Throw in guys talking about forcing rape victims to carry to term, and it solidifies these positions. It's like the gun control crowd knowing that banning 50 cal is just the first step, but ultimately, banning all guns is the real goal. So it is seen with abortion also.

So commonsense in the middle is thrown out, and the extreme sides of most issues carry the day.

I don't think that abortions should be paid for with my taxes. But I also do not have an issue with something more for young people other than "purity rings" and calls for abstinence expecting folks to be virgins when they marry in their twenties.

The problem is, even if you did not use tax dollars in any area of abortions, there would still be those so obsessed with what others do, that just another part of the issue would become the battle. Stop late term abortion, then stop earlier abortions would be the battle cry. Stop abortions, then try to stop teens from having sex. Then if you can not stop sex, send away girls in shame till they have the baby out of sight as in the old days. Just how long would it be before we are just the modern day equivalent of the Taliban?

Every so often, we get glimpses of how far do gooders would go if allowed. Like banning alcohol. We tried that. But in the end, a happy middle ground is probably best. But any common ground will never be achieved in abortion, guns, and other issues to include smoking pot, when some are driven by religious ideology, and forcing their views upon others as they rationalize that as their duty and calling.

It is interesting how many call for the stoppage of tax dollars used in areas of society they are against. And how many think government should not be controlling of religion. But how many of the same think THEIR religion should be part of politics. I wish religion could be checked at the door of politics.

Most folks are against abortion. But most folks also do not think they should dictate what a women does with her body. And I question those that go around pointing fingers at others telling them what they should do. But I guess for some, especially the religious, they are doing their calling. I am glad I have way too many other things to do than be obsessed with making a 17 year old have a baby after what some would call a sin, or force a rape victim to carry to term.
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asprince
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2013, 10:52:06 AM »

I am glad I have way too many other things to do than be obsessed with making a 17 year old have a baby after what some would call a sin, or force a rape victim to carry to term.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Abortion is murder.....period.

With that being said, don't ask me to help pay for it and don't try to convince me or my children it's ok. But, if you do it, I will still love you and that is a decision that you will have to answer before GOD. 


Steve
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2013, 04:07:49 PM »

When you think about, the idea of a rape victim being forced to give birth to the baby is perfectly consistent with most "pro-life" folks. The argument is that abortion takes a life. Is a life worth something less if it is the result of a rape? Does the unborn child, which was the result of a rape, have any less rights than an unborn child that is the result of a happy marriage?

My problem with the abortion argument is the lack of logical consistency.

Here's what I mean -

Let's say that a pregnant woman decides she wants to have an abortion. Our law says that she's within her rights to kill the baby. Now, let's say that the pregnant woman is murdered on her way to the abortion clinic. The murderer can be charged with two counts of murder - one for the woman, and one for the unborn baby.

So, even though the woman was on her way to kill the unborn baby, and it was going to be legal, it suddenly becomes illegal because of who did the killing. The outcome for the baby is still the same.

Either it's murder or its not. Who does the killing shouldn't matter.
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asprince
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2013, 04:44:01 PM »

Just because abortion is legal does not make it right. Legal or not, abortion is murder. Rape is a terrible thing to happen to a woman but does it give her the right to kill the unborn baby?


Steve
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2013, 05:00:07 PM »

Quote
Let's say that a pregnant woman decides she wants to have an abortion. Our law says that she's within her rights to kill the baby. Now, let's say that the pregnant woman is murdered on her way to the abortion clinic. The murderer can be charged with two counts of murder - one for the woman, and one for the unborn baby.

depends on where it happens.  different laws in different places.

i don't think that the circumstances of conception can make a difference in the right or wrong of abortion.  if it's wrong, it's wrong.  the one exception that i MIGHT consider is if the life of the mother is in danger.  in that case, and it would be a rare case, you might make the exception for the sake of the family. 

we wonder why we raise kids who do not respect life.  what's to wonder about when we have brought up a couple of generations teaching them that life is important only if it's convenient.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2013, 05:28:03 PM »

Very well said Kathy. Thank you.


Steve
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2013, 06:53:14 PM »

Hmm,
Last time I checked,abortion was not a guaranteed right in the Constitution. Guns for the people to protect themselves from a tyrannical government was.
Planned parenthood was started as a genocidal organization.we need not fund that. Staes have the ability to legislate abortion within their own borders.
Judicial activism made it a federal agenda.
Their was not really a seperation of church and state. More activism there. It reads no "law " shall be passed endorsing a particular religion,or laws passed to restrict the practice of religion. They forget about the second part.  A manger scene in public square is not forced their by any government, it usually goes there by community tradition. When a very few are offended by the majority of the communities traditions,it seem the majority always loses. this is why America is losing touch with its traditions and values. We are actually losing touch with any sense of anything that is not politically correct.
 Are you aware that less than 1 percent of abortions are performed due to rape and incest? Does this make any difference? Probably not for those that want to do it for gender reasons or birth control.
And good point that it's not a life form in terms of abortion but is if a mother is killed at the hands of another.
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2013, 06:57:13 PM »

And as far as convicted repeat murderers,the expense does not have to be that great.Injections are cheap.So is hanging. After they have their day in court,we do not need to keep them for thirty years.
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2013, 07:24:21 PM »

Quote
And as far as convicted repeat murderers,the expense does not have to be that great.Injections are cheap.So is hanging. After they have their day in court,we do not need to keep them for thirty years.

yup
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2013, 07:28:05 PM »

Yes, but.........only with absolute proof of guilt. No one should be executed on circumstantial evidence.



Steve
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2013, 11:52:25 PM »

i agree.  technology has improved and it needs to be applied.  evidence needs another look and this is a good start.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

but, once you have verified the evidence, fry them....on high heat.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 07:29:42 AM »

If abortions where performed with an assault weapons, would it then be wrong?

If liberals were truly pro-choice and not really just pro-abortion (which they hate being called),  they would be just as vocal promoting women carrying guns to protect themselves from being raped, and pro school vouchers so that women can send their kids to the schools they see best.  Oh but wait,  if you get to choose the school, we can't control the curriculum and indoctrination.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2013, 06:50:44 PM »

When abortion comes up, I keep inviting people to take in 5-10 unwanted children. It is so, so, SO easy to argue against abortion and then turn a blind eye to the 100s of 1000s of unwanted children who don't have much of a chance in life. I am seeing this very up close and personal right now, so I feel strongly about this, and not just hypothetically.

Ideally, people would control their own fertility in a way that only wanted children were born. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2013, 06:53:24 PM »

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and I can hear differing opinions without calling someone stupid.

no you can't.  you are a liberal.  you can pretend to hear what others say, but because you believe your intentions are the best, your opinion is all that matters to you.  you believe that you have the moral high ground and everyone else and their opinions are trash to be swept up.

just what biology are you talking about, BTW?  
And how is this different from your response to people who disagree with you?

I can acknowledge people's opinions about abortion and access to birth control. I disagree, but I can see why others feel the way they do.

When someone opines that rape CANNOT produce pregnancy, that's completely untrue, I will call them stupid, and I feel no need to try to see the world the way they do.


ETA: As I keep repeating over and over and over, I am married to a conservative, my parents are conservative, most of the people I love are politically conservative. You do not know me. So please don't tell me that I "pretend" to hear what others say. Perhaps most of the conservative commentary on here is so offensive and abrasive that it's harder to listen to than the people I normally talk to.
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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2013, 08:20:19 PM »

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When someone opines that rape CANNOT produce pregnancy, that's completely untrue, I will call them stupid, and I feel no need to try to see the world the way they do.

no one said that.  what he said is that you are less apt to become pregnant by way of rape.  this was a commonly held belief even among medial people years ago.  not surprising that he thought that at his age.  it's right up there with semi automatic weapons shooting down planes and flags on mars.

Quote
When abortion comes up, I keep inviting people to take in 5-10 unwanted children. It is so, so, SO easy to argue against abortion and then turn a blind eye to the 100s of 1000s of unwanted children who don't have much of a chance in life. I am seeing this very up close and personal right now, so I feel strongly about this, and not just hypothetically.

i'm not sure why you think unwanted children justifies murder.  if it's because some of those kids will end up criminals or on drugs, lets wait and just kill the ones who do.  that way you preserve the ones who turn out to be good citizens and get rid of the ones you were worried about.  you have accomplished your goal and hopefully killed fewer.

Quote
So please don't tell me that I "pretend" to hear what others say. Perhaps most of the conservative commentary on here is so offensive and abrasive that it's harder to listen to than the people I normally talk to.

i am not married to you and i am not your family.  i am not required to engage in PC conversations so that i don't offend you and have to fix my own dinner for the next month.  smiley





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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2013, 08:38:30 PM »

Thankfully, my husband is not SO conservative that he can't fix his own meals, marital discord or not.

It gets hard to keep track of which Republican said which crazy thing, but one of them was on a committee for health! Okay, looked it up--Akin, and on the House Science Committee. That's actually terrifying. An elected official with medieval beliefs about rape and fertility, on a committee you'd like to think is based on modern knowledge.

I don't think unwanted children justifies murder. I think both scenarios are appalling. Just one does far less damage. You want to talk about the children who go on to live a life of crime. What about those who don't commit crimes but suffer every day of their lives? Ahhh, forget it. It's an argument with no end. I won't convince you, you won't convince me. What a waste of time. I never, ever get anyone who will tell me what to do with all the unwanted children. They're apparently just too hypothetical.

As for crime, in Freakonomics, one interesting find was a huge drop in the crime rate approximately 18 years after abortion was legalized.

ETA: Here's what Akin actually said, “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." I only know of one person in my family's life who admitted to being raped. She was a missionary in a foreign country, most likely a virgin at the time, and she got pregnant by her rapist. She left her missionary work to raise the child alone, for which I give her tremendous credit.
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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2013, 08:56:54 PM »

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Okay, looked it up--Akin, and on the Hous

but he didn't say you couldn't get pregnant from rape.  he said it was rare.  this was a commonly held position and it is still a truth, but not because rape doesn't produce pregnancy.  only because the odds of being raped at the right time are slim.

Quote
What about those who don't commit crimes but suffer every day of their lives

and what about those who don't...or wouldn't?
Quote
“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."

the part of the statement that got him into trouble was the legitimate rape part.  i know exactly what he meant and so did everyone who heard it. 

this is the way of the left.  when one of theirs says something stupid, they excuse it.  when a conservative says something...not even stupid, but which can be twisted to fit their needs, they are all over it.  you say you lose track of which republican said which crazy thing, but i'd be willing to bet that if you make lists of stupid comments, the list for the left would be far longer....but hey, as long as they  mean well....it's all good.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2013, 08:58:12 PM »

and why would you think that one's level of conservatism would have something to do with cooking ability.  i'm not sure if that's sexist...or just fits into the crazy comment catagory.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2013, 09:10:07 PM »

“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."
the part of the statement that got him into trouble was the legitimate rape part.  i know exactly what he meant and so did everyone who heard it.  

this is the way of the left.  when one of theirs says something stupid, they excuse it.  when a conservative says something...not even stupid, but which can be twisted to fit their needs, they are all over it.  you say you lose track of which republican said which crazy thing, but i'd be willing to bet that if you make lists of stupid comments, the list for the left would be far longer....but hey, as long as they  mean well....it's all good.
Obviously not.

You said:  "i am not required to engage in PC conversations so that i don't offend you and have to fix my own dinner for the next month."
Not sure who's being sexist here. But I am glad to be married to a man who can cook.
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2013, 09:13:26 PM »

Take a look at the thread I just posted and you "might" see why the left's way isn't working in the eyes of the world.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,40141.0.html
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