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Author Topic: Double deeps or story and a half?  (Read 1506 times)
Caelansbees
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« on: February 02, 2013, 11:36:00 PM »

I've had mixed reviews.  What I am told is that you constantly have to rotate your boxes when running double deeps.  However, if you run a single deep with a medium the brood nest will stay contained and will not need to rotate them.  I tried this with two hives this year with one resulting in a poor queen and not being good for comparison.  The second had the queen all the way up in the third super!  What do you thing?
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2013, 11:52:36 PM »

very rarely is there a reason to rotate boxes no matter what size you are using.  it disrupts the brood nest and the entire hive.  as for box size, it's a matter of preference.  many people like the idea of using all one size, usually mediums, because you have interchangeable frames all the way through and the weight is less.
make your box size decision based on how you want to grow and manipulate your hives.  don't be swapping boxes.  it's not productive.
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 05:19:35 AM »

 However, if you run a single deep with a medium the brood nest will stay contained and will not need to rotate them.  


In Britain they love their brood and half, but it makes no sense. Douple brood is really flexiple to use.

Rotating boxes and frames is very essential in beekeeping.

1)  in early summer you change the order and bees move rest of winter food in consumption.
2) the lower part of frame will be consumed evenly when you litf it in the middle of brood area a nd the upper part of frames get the same position


Like here: there is plenty of unused brood cells and centre is too old


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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 05:28:03 AM »

.
One rotaion direction is horizontal. Move older combs to the centre of brood box. Then when you see that comb is used enought, lift it to super. Bees emerge from it and it will be filled with honey and extracted.

Once I used a style that I moved new combs to centre. Then it came a day when my all frames were equally old. It was hard job to renew the combs at same time.

I use 3 brood boxes. Reason is that then bees fill the lowest box with pollen during main flow and they rear winter bees with that pollen store.
With 3 brood boxes they do rear brood in honey boxes.

To get pollen it is better to use light dark combs. Bees do not like to store pollen into white combs.
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10framer
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 08:27:58 AM »

double deep with a queen excluder between the brood chamber and honey supers.  in the fall pull the excluder and leave the bees one super of honey unless they have the top hive filled with winter stores (i'd still leave one because  don't like to feed).  if the queen has moved the brood chamber to the top deep by early spring rotate the deeps then, find the queen and put your excluder back on.  if you still have really cold nights in early spring wait longer on the rotation and excluder.
i move the older combs to the outsides but this is just something i do on an "as needed basis.
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Hemlock
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »

If you flip your boxes for Spring swarm control then you'll be flipping boxes whether they're deeps or mediums.  I don't know that flipping boxes has anything to do with box size.

Choose a box size you can contend with.  Consider weight when full.  

I started with double deeps but am switching to all mediums now.  The smaller boxes are easier to work and allow for more control with dead space issues.

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10framer
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 06:30:24 PM »

If you flip your boxes for Spring swarm control then you'll be flipping boxes whether they're deeps or mediums.  I don't know that flipping boxes has anything to do with box size.

Choose a box size you can contend with.  Consider weight when full.  

I started with double deeps but am switching to all mediums now.  The smaller boxes are easier to work and allow for more control with dead space issues.


i'm flipping boxes to speed up expansion of the brood chamber more than swarm control.  i want the bees to go into swarm mode because i like to split early. 
as far as deeps vs. mediums goes i'd rather go through 20 frames than i would 30 or 40 frames if i need to find the queen.   
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 06:10:53 PM »

I hate having different sized frames.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize
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Greg
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 07:17:41 PM »

I think there are a lot of right answers to the question, but as our goals have changed so have our ideas about how to achieve them.

We started with 10 fame Deeps and shallows for honey.  Now I am buying/building nothing but deeps for the flexibility it affords when making splits, nucs, strengthening, etc.

We will continue to use the shallows on a few hives set aside for honey production but will not be adding more shallows to the inventory.

Each beek has reasons for selecting the equipment they use, and the beautiful thing is you can make anything work.  Keep in mind the limitations on flexibility when selecting what you will use.
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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 02:10:12 AM »


Each beek has reasons for selecting the equipment they use, and the beautiful thing is you can make anything work.  Keep in mind the limitations on flexibility when selecting what you will use.

Yes, so they surely do.

Beeks ask advice but they do it like they have allways done.

If I will do like this forum says, I would have no living hive for 8 years.

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KD4MOJ
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 08:00:18 AM »

If you flip your boxes for Spring swarm control then you'll be flipping boxes whether they're deeps or mediums.  I don't know that flipping boxes has anything to do with box size.

I checkerboard my frames in the spring so that tends to help with the swarming.

I wouldn't mind going with mediums but I can't justify the extra cost... since it seems that you are using mediums for every two deeps. Twice as many boxes, twice as many frames.

...DOUG
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10framer
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 11:19:49 AM »

If you flip your boxes for Spring swarm control then you'll be flipping boxes whether they're deeps or mediums.  I don't know that flipping boxes has anything to do with box size.

I checkerboard my frames in the spring so that tends to help with the swarming.

I wouldn't mind going with mediums but I can't justify the extra cost... since it seems that you are using mediums for every two deeps. Twice as many boxes, twice as many frames.

...DOUG
KD4MOJ

yeah,  when my back really goes i'll switch to 6 frame equipment (if anybody still makes it) and all deeps.  by the time i'm that old i'm sure i won't be able to handle more than a couple of colonies so my mentality will probably be "if they swarm they swarm".   right now i'm more interested in building up colonies than harvesting anything anyway.

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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 11:41:42 AM »

Quote
I checkerboard my frames in the spring so that tends to help with the swarming.

far better management, i think, than box swapping.  manages the brood space and doesn't confuse and disrupt the configuration of the hive.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
10framer
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 02:41:49 PM »

Quote
I checkerboard my frames in the spring so that tends to help with the swarming.

far better management, i think, than box swapping.  manages the brood space and doesn't confuse and disrupt the configuration of the hive.

i think it's fine later in the season but i don't like putting empty comb between frames of brood when the bees still cluster at night. 
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KD4MOJ
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 04:31:30 PM »


Checkerboard in the spring... with drawn comb.  Sorry I didn't mention that. I didn't have the swarming conditions from previous years. Of course this is my bee yard (YMMV) in this part of Florida (panhandle) and it might be different for other folks but it really helped me. I also checked weekly for swarm cells on the remaining frames. I used the FatBeeMan method for checker boarding, not Walt Wright's method. I'm not sure how his method would help during swarm season since that is not where the problem is (brood chamber). But that is just me!  grin

I'm glad I started this last spring since I broke my humerous (greater tuberosity humerus fracture) on Nov 11 and I can't lift squat!!! You never know you will miss something until you can't do it any more. So my bee activities have been just looking in the hive and controling mites by the vapor method (that actually worked for me as well). Still have the honey in the supers from last year (procrastination!). Got a MRI (finally!!) scheduled tomorrow so we'll see if they have to go in to repair. Physical therapy only goes so far...

...DOUG
KD4MOJ
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sterling
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 12:34:31 PM »

Quote
I checkerboard my frames in the spring so that tends to help with the swarming.

far better management, i think, than box swapping.  manages the brood space and doesn't confuse and disrupt the configuration of the hive.

i think it's fine later in the season but i don't like putting empty comb between frames of brood when the bees still cluster at night. 
Walt Wright method doesn't put empty comb between frames in the brood nest. And doesn't disrupt the brood nest any other way.
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Bush_84
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 04:20:03 PM »

I think that your location will dictate whether you can reverse or checkerboard.  I think that in the north bees will generally be I'm the top box in the spring.  They will not have any honey above them to checkerboard.  All of my colonies are in the top box.  So it makes sense to take the empty deep below and put it on top.  It is never a good idea to do so if there is brood in the lower box. 

Now I believe that in warmer climate, they will go into the spring with honey overhead.  In that case you are going to want to checkerboard and not reverse. 

But I agree that box size does not change any of this.  This winter I tried wintering my 8 frame hives with two deeps and one medium.  Next winter I am going with three deeps if I am able. 
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brushwoodnursery
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 08:19:33 AM »

Is there a quick explanation and maybe comparison between the two checkerboarding methods mentioned above? I'm on double deep 8 frame and would like to look into swarm prevention for my most vigorous colony.
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Bush_84
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 01:18:01 PM »

Mb website FTW!

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm

Reversing is really just putting an empty hive body on top.  Don't do this if there is any brood in that bottom deep.
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Finski
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 02:45:29 PM »



Reversing is really just putting an empty hive body on top.  Don't do this if there is any brood in that bottom deep.

Yes, that is my rule. I let the colony occupy first half box and then I change the order.

Long time ago I put an empty box on the brood box, as it was said. But then I inspected what happened in lower box. Often bees destroyed 1/3 out of brood because they were not able to nurse them.

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