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Author Topic: Winter beekeeping...  (Read 7379 times)
derekm
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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 04:56:23 PM »

.
What ever it is, 8 kg food over winter is impossible.

.

why?
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 05:23:12 PM »

.
Hard winter to bees means that there is a long period cold. We had that 2 years ago.
All apple tree flower buttons died, not for cold but for long period, because they dried up.

When it is cold, bee cluster is not a ball. The bees are as slices  between combs. They cannot move from there if food is finnish.

I saw lots of hives where 2 or 3 slices of cluster had died and ther rest is survived.

The mild winter means that the cluster can move and reform again and again and move to food. There might be handfull of bees after winter but still alive and they have collected together.



Precisely my point.  A warmer than average winter (used to be as long as 7 months) has bees consuming 'more not less' of their winter stores as they are able move about, breaking cluster when they should be staying in cluster, where they would consume less, that is until enough of a warm up allows them to move to another area of the hive.  That's been my observation anyway. 

I never had to feed sugar (or insulate) when we had more typical winters.  For the last 8 years, its likely the one constant that has kept my colonies alive.

We must remember that honeybees are 'tropical" thus pretty much unsuited to living anywhere too far beyond the equator.....................without beekeepers that is  grin.

derekm;  You gonna show us that paper (or answer the questions presented)?
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edward
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« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2013, 05:34:15 PM »

derekm;  You gonna show us that paper (or answer the questions presented)?

Try the link at the bottom of his post « Reply #33 on: Today at 11:44:23 »

mvh edward  tongue
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derekm
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2013, 06:33:37 AM »





...

We must remember that honeybees are 'tropical" thus pretty much unsuited to living anywhere too far beyond the equator.....................without beekeepers that is  grin.

...
thats not the case ... they are only as tropical  as tigers leopards and homo sapiens are...
i.e. there are cold adapted sub species e.g. Apis melliferia mellifera (see snow leopard, siberian tiger, inuit, northern europeans etc)
they have taken to habitats that allow them to survive winters with temperatures below at least -15C .
The genetic evidence suggests the honey bees only retreated as far as Spain during the ice ages.

Humans provide a thermally inferior habitat. From a thermal point of view bees are better off  in cold climates without homo sapiens and their chainsaws, axes and hives.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 06:45:05 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2013, 08:58:04 AM »

I'm pretty confidant that without beeks keeping (?) bees, especially new Beeks allowing endless swarms to escape in some pretty inhospitable climates honeybees would eventually die out everywhere except for those regions around the equator or otherwise protected by environment...........unless of course, global warming allows for their global expansion, again without the assistance of Beeks, which makes it theory only, but theory based based on historical evidence non the less.

Think about it;  How long would Finski's bees survive without Finski?  Meaning; swarming out, going wild, living free in the forests and fields of Finland without human intervention.  Based on 'current' weather patterns I'd give them 2-5 years.

Where do the majority of package bees come from?  Where do the majority of the worlds 'wild' bees survive and thrive?  Not Finland and not N/W Wisconsin.  

Wonder why?  Start by not comparing humans and leopards to honeybees  grin

***Personally; I think "life" would be better off without humans*****
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Parksguyy
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« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2013, 10:30:05 AM »

Hi there,
I'm located in Ontario (Ottawa area) so cold and damp winters.  We had a break from the weather last week after coming off a week of -25 celius ... and were able to add fondant cakes to my hives.  I went into winter with one weaker hive and used the Mountain Camp feeding method ... fed them twice that way.  Fondant is better and more easily digested from what I have read.  Come late February I will be feeding pollen patties to give the girls a head start on the season.
 
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derekm
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2013, 12:07:22 PM »

I'm pretty confidant that without beeks keeping (?) bees, especially new Beeks allowing endless swarms to escape in some pretty inhospitable climates honeybees would eventually die out everywhere except for those regions around the equator or otherwise protected by environment...........unless of course, global warming allows for their global expansion, again without the assistance of Beeks, which makes it theory only, but theory based based on historical evidence non the less.

Think about it;  How long would Finski's bees survive without Finski?  Meaning; swarming out, going wild, living free in the forests and fields of Finland without human intervention.  Based on 'current' weather patterns I'd give them 2-5 years.

Where do the majority of package bees come from?  Where do the majority of the worlds 'wild' bees survive and thrive?  Not Finland and not N/W Wisconsin.  

Wonder why?  Start by not comparing humans and leopards to honeybees  grin

***Personally; I think "life" would be better off without humans*****
I suggest you read T Seely's  paper "the nest of honeybee".  He found plenty feral bees around Ithaca in upstate New York living in trees. And if you speak to him he says there are quite a few feral bees in trees there now. Bees do fine in northern USA with out us.
Strains of Apis mellifera are NATIVE to NORTHERN Europe e.g. Apis Mellifera Mellifera. Anything thats been here since the last ice age is considered native.

"Study area. We collected nests in the vicinity of Ithaca, N. Y. Numerous feral
honey bee colonies inhabit the unmanaged, mature forests of this agricultural region.
Ithaca has a humid, continental type climate with warm summers and long, cold winters"
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/36534771/1231081088/name/NEST+OF+THE+HONEY+BEE.pdf

btw Ithaca has a similar climate to Helsinki
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 12:22:09 PM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2013, 12:51:13 PM »

C'mon  derekm, at least read what I said before commenting please. 

I remain convinced (but you can keep trying Wink), Honeybees would soon be gone from NY (in fact much of N America) without the help from beekeepers. 

Where do you think those 'wild' or so-called 'feral bees' in NY that T Seely studied came from?
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derekm
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« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2013, 12:55:40 PM »

C'mon  derekm, at least read what I said before commenting please. 

I remain convinced (but you can keep trying Wink), Honeybees would soon be gone from NY (in fact much of N America) without the help from beekeepers. 

Where do you think those 'wild' or so-called 'feral bees' in NY that T Seely studied came from?

What is it that you think bee keepers contribute that bees can't do for themselves?

it certainly isnt beekeepers providing a better habitat. (take a close look at those tree nests)
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2013, 01:12:35 PM »

Beekeepers supply BEES! shocked
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derekm
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« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2013, 01:16:32 PM »

look at this
Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States

    Thomas D. Seeley


Feral colonies of European honey bees living in the Arnot Forest, a 1651-ha research preserve in New York State, were studied over a three-year period, 2002 to 2005. This population of colonies was previously censused in 1978. A census in 2002 revealed as many colonies as before, even though Varroa destructor was introduced to North America in the intervening years. Most colonies located in fall 2002 were still alive in fall 2005.

This doesnt seem to indicate feral colonies rapidly dying out does it?
https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/seeley_apidologie_2007%2838%2919-29.pdf
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
dfizer
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« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2013, 03:57:07 PM »

Wow guys!  When I started this thread I never expected this type of reaction.  My question / potential problem is relatively simple - first here's what I know:
- I have three polystyrene hive that I attempted to feed full in the fall
- Now when i went out to check on the hives my first observation is that they are noticeably lighter. Perhaps this is a problem perhaps it isn't... I don't really know... how light is too light? 
- Next, how do you know when emergency feeding is called for?  I too have heard that fondant is easier for bees to digest however im not really a fondant making guru and if I don't need to make it I'd prefer not too.

My conundrum is this - the hives seemed really well sealed and for me to go into the hives now will certainly break these seals and cause cold air to make it's way into the hives.  If your recommendations are the go into the hive to check on the bees, then how should I do that and what specifically am I looking for?  If it's capped honey then ok but once i see bees or capped honey should I just close it back up and leave?  My primary goal is to do everything I can to ensure the bees make it through the winter. 

Current conditions here - 32F/3F or 0C/-16C.  The forecast is for much of the same or slightly colder temps for the next week.  The bad news is that were going to have low temps of -6F/-21C on Saturday but the good news is Monday the temps should get to 39F/32F or 4C/0C. 

So to summarize - i need to determine if I need to feed - how should I do this, and assuming I do need to feed, what technique should I use...  I do plan to feed a 1:2 syrup in March so I just need to make it until then.

Thanks again

David

Please accept my apology for starting such an argumentative thread...
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Finski
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« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2013, 04:11:34 PM »

Wow guys!  When I started this thread I never expected this type of reaction.  My question / potential problem is relatively simple - first here's what I know:

It needs experience, what light means when you lift the hive. But if you have that much frost -16C, you cannot do nothing to bees.

If you feed, they may do the feces inside the hive.

So you should wait for cleansing flight. It is not far away.  My cleansing flights start here a month later.  Bright sun and +5C on snow.

Now my hives are frozen into snow, and I cannot lift them. But I lift the inner cover and it is easy to see, if they have capped food in upper parts of frames.
As long as I see capped food, I move feeding later.


.
In 2 box hives I may loose and  lift the upper box and  copare it to empty framed box.

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T Beek
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« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2013, 04:31:22 PM »

No apology is needed dfizer; Thank you for starting this thread!  it's just that winter is soooooooooo long  grin  It can and does get much more heated than this, check the archives.

Some Beeks simply can't get beyond the 'human' intervention aspect of my argument, which essentially narrows their perspective and is the basis of 'my opinion' on honeybee survival "without human intervention" much beyond the equator.  I believe Tom Seely would likely agree with my assertions, in fact I'm pretty sure he already has  Wink

*****This debating is kinda what beeks do when we can't get into our hives  Smiley*******

If your colonies 'seem' light, FEED them.  Better safe than sorry.  Can you get to them from the top?  Not sure of your set up but w/ temps in the 30's your bees will be in loose cluster and likely taking cleansing flights and you should be able to remove the top, place (slightly damp) paper over the inner cover hole, an empty box over the paper and dump some dry sugar inside.  Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes, less w/ a helper.  FEED YOUR BEES whenever in doubt.
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Bush_84
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« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2013, 04:40:16 PM »

Ya wait for a sunny day in the 30s f and pop the top.  Have some sugar to mountain camp if needed.  If no capped honey then get sugar close to cluster.

As far as the bees retracting to the equator....sounds like you refuse to face the fact that bees have been in frigid climates before humans kept bees.  Yes we probably supply a lot of feral colonies, but bees have been north of the tropics far before we started complicating things.  I do suspect that their range will retract before it expands again, but they will not be isolated to tropical climates. 
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.
T Beek
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« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2013, 04:55:36 PM »

look at this
Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States

    Thomas D. Seeley


Feral colonies of European honey bees living in the Arnot Forest, a 1651-ha research preserve in New York State, were studied over a three-year period, 2002 to 2005. This population of colonies was previously censused in 1978. A census in 2002 revealed as many colonies as before, even though Varroa destructor was introduced to North America in the intervening years. Most colonies located in fall 2002 were still alive in fall 2005.

This doesnt seem to indicate feral colonies rapidly dying out does it?
https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/seeley_apidologie_2007%2838%2919-29.pdf

Ask the question;  How did those Arnot Forest Bees get there in the first place?  And what keeps replenishing them (w/ new genetics)?  And if beekeepers suddenly STOPPED keeping bees in the region, how long would these 'so-called feral bees' survive in Arnot Forest?  I'm still at 2-5, a three year study (with human intervention) not being 'anywhere' near long enough for such certainty to exist or change my opinion, sorry.

Try again  grin

I'd like to see proof of your assertion as well Bush_84.  Archaeological evidence suggests that Honeybees have pretty much followed the weather patterns that were most conducive to their survival (tropical) and moved around the globe along with the less extreme currents or died out, until people started messing with them.

Again I ask;  Where do the majority of the worlds (really wild) WILD bees live?  Not so-called ferals that more than likely began as some beeks 'first' hive grin
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Finski
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« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2013, 05:04:48 PM »

FEED YOUR BEES whenever in doubt.

But however, select the coldest day of the year!!!
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« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »


Again I ask;  Where do the majority of the worlds (really wild) WILD bees live?  Not so-called ferals that more than likely began as some beeks 'first' hive grin

I do not mind what "feral" hives do in chimneys, in tree holes, inside walls, in woods  and in what ever. I know what I do my hive bees.
Those escaped swarms may do how they like.

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T Beek
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« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2013, 05:10:49 PM »

 I dunno lau

Should we laugh or cry?
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edward
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« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 06:30:23 PM »

If you take varoa out of the equation bees can survive long cold winters fine buy themselves without the help of beekeepers

One of the oldest laws that still applies in Sweden is from 1634 and regulates the ownership of feral hives.
The bees were around in 800-1000AD when the vikings drank MJÖD so they could do there berserk when they pillaged and plundered.
cheer To make mjöd Viking beer you need HONEY  cheer
Where did they get honey? must have been from wild hives  bee


mvh edward  tongue
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