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Author Topic: Winter beekeeping...  (Read 9125 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2013, 12:48:44 PM »

We had 19 below zero (F) this AM, but at least the wind was calm.  All of my hives had a few dead in front of them from yesterday when we only got up to 12F above but BRIGHT sunshine.  We have tough bees  Wink

What was your temp there in the UK?

18 lbs of winter stores!  In Norway!  I'd definitely like to see that paper  shocked.  

Does the study include the amount of syrup that was fed as well?  Or just the amount of honey left by the beek/scientist conducting the experiment?  How 'big' was the colony (s)?  That would be good to know.  Was it/were they kept in a building or outside?  I have lots of questions  grin

Fact is; bees consume MORE when its warm and if we artificially are keeping them warm, particularly in extreme climates, it 'may' be counterproductive to any future survival "if" we are training them to 'need' us instead of the other way around.  Or, perhaps that is the goal some are trying to accomplish?Huh?  

Just saying............... Smiley

Personally, I've got a messed up back/neck/head and I'm just not that anal w/ my beekeeping to precisely weigh them, other than the occasional tip.  I try real hard to have them built up to 4 mediums with the top one packed w/ honey by winter wrap up time, but have 'successfully' overwintered in just 'one' medium, a small cluster/NUC on 4 frames surrounded by honey AND a full medium of honey above it.  Placed on top of one of my LONG Hives, that one survived just fine and didn't need any of the sugar I left.  

By Winter wrap up, w/out weighing I just 'know' which ones are light and will require feeding, but I leave dry sugar for "all" of them.  That said; I also STOP 'taking' any honey in August.  Whatever they collect from about the middle of the month is theirs, which includes our goldenrod and Aster flows and can go well into October.  Even w/ a good flow I still will leave them all some sugar.

I only started insulating my hives this year and am still not convinced they are any better than plain wood.  I believe my colonies might be suffering because let's face it, insulation (foam) doesn't BREATH, allowing condensation to accumulate despite Top Entrances.  It certainly explains the frost build up at the entrances that has NEVER been an issue before.

There are as many ways to keep bees as there are beekeepers, its NOT a competition  cool and that is a 'good' thing.
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Finski
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2013, 01:21:24 PM »


Fact is; bees consume MORE when its warm and if we artificially are keeping them warm, particularly in extreme climates,


But that fact is false. Those from grandpa to son stories. So many guy say so. I have seen what they consume during mild winter and during severe winter.

Of course, when it becomes February, bees raise their temperature when they start to rear brood.


Winter consumption in Norway 1 kg/month? It is impossible.

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T Beek
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »

My own bees have consistently consumed "more" when our winters are mild, when compared to more severe winters when they just seem to 'stop' or slow down everything.   Must be that "local beekeeping" thing  grin
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 01:48:37 PM »

My own bees have consistently consumed "more" when our winters are mild, when compared to more severe winters when they just seem to 'stop' or slow down everything.   Must be that "local beekeeping" thing  grin


Yes, everything is so different.

- no need of insulation
- bees consume in warm more than in cold
- feeding every time when it becomes warm spell  and in every hollyday

carry on.............locally. But please, don't tell to others!
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edward
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2013, 06:21:55 PM »

How many beeks, in a 'variety' of climates keep bees in the US?  As compared to Europe?  Asia or Africa?

I wounder if the bees even know which continent they are on  rolleyes



mvh edward   tongue
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edward
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2013, 06:40:47 PM »

18lbs - 8kg in Norway could bee right for winter food consumption

But usually the winter stores also are for the spring build up also. so they might not be included

In Sweden we give 12 to 20 kg depending on when and how much honey is harvested and left in the hive.
Poly hives, more sugar farther north.

mvh edward  tongue
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T Beek
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 06:59:05 PM »

Sigh..............................................................Too many questions/opinions and not enough answers............ Sad in this crowd................................ Undecided
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edward
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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2013, 07:03:47 PM »

Too many questions/opinions and not enough answers


Hmmmm this could bee mistaken for a bee keeping site full of beekeepers that have a hard time deciding the one and only way to keep bees  rolleyes


mvh edward  tongue
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Jim 134
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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2013, 07:15:38 PM »

How many beeks, in a 'variety' of climates keep bees in the US?  As compared to Europe?  Asia or Africa?

 T Beek........

 I have keeper bees in Africa all so.I am a RPCV, Tunisia 83-85 (Return Peace Corps Volunteer)




               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
 



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Finski
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2013, 02:07:00 AM »

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simple winter feeding thing.

one Langstrotrh frame can have 2,5 kg honey.

3  full frame is almost 8 kg. Do you think that for 10 fame box 3 full frame food is enough?


YOu must feed the box full. Otherwise they do not cap the food. Then it soaks moisture and start to ferment.

I leave about 5 kg honey into box and then feed 16 litres syrup. I know that one box hive is then full.

It is better to put the hive full than "save" sugar. The cost of sugar is nothing.





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Finski
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 02:27:33 AM »

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Text from Norwegian Wikipedia
Om sommeren lever den enkelte arbeiderbie ikke mange ukene, men bier som er utklekket i september lever helt til nyåret. Samfunnet kan overleve i svært lang tid. Nye dronninger kan avløse den gamle og de utslitte. Nyutklekkede dronninger overtar, mens gamle dronninger utvandrer (svermer) med en del av samfunnet, slik at de kan formere seg.
 
Men det viktigste virkemiddelet for samfunnets overlevelse er dog honningen. Den sikrer samfunnet energi og varme under den lange, inaktive perioden om vinteren eller i tørketider. Et bisamfunn har bruk for ca. 15 kilo honning i løpet av en vinter . Når vinteren setter inn setter biene seg i en stor vinterklynge omkring dronningen i boet. Den indre kjernen av bier i en slik vinterklynge opprettholder en konstant temperatur på 33 °C hele vinteren gjennom. Dette er yngleområdet. I kalde områder som Norge holder biene dog en yngelpause og dermed en lavere temperatur det meste av vinteren. I området utenfor finnes en løsere krets av bier som opprettholder en temperatur på omkring 24 °C. Ytterst sitter en krets av tettpakkede bier som fungerer som en levende pels omkring resten av samfunnet. I denne kretsen er temperaturen omkring 15 °C. Biene kan opprettholde disse temperaturene selv om omgivelsene utenfor har minusgrader.


Google translationBut the most important instrument for society's survival is, however, honey. It ensures community energy and heat during the long, inactive period in the winter or in times of drought. A bisamfunn need approx. 15 kg honey during a winter . When winter sets in putting bees in a large winter cluster around the queen in the estate. The inner core of bees in such a winter cluster maintains a constant temperature of 33 ° C throughout the winter. This is the breeding area. In cold areas like Norway keeps bees though a juvenile pause and thus a lower temperature most of the winter. In the area outside is a looser group of bees that maintains a temperature of about 24 ° C. Extremely sits a circle of densely packed bees that works like a living fur around the rest of society. In this circuit, the temperature is about 15 ° C. The bees can maintain these temperatures even if the environment outside is freezing.
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Finski
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2013, 02:40:50 AM »

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NORWAY

Here is a newspaper story where 80 hives beekeepers says:


Av de hundre kiloene hadde biene kun trengt rundt 20 kilo for å komme seg gjennom vinteren. Men siden sukker er både billigere og faktisk bedre kost for biene en lynghonning tar røkteren ut all honning.

About 20 kg honey for winter per colony.


http://svelviksposten.no/nyheter/sveivens-gyldne-draper-1.7501578
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Finski
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2013, 02:53:41 AM »

18lbs - 8kg in Norway could bee right for winter food consumption

But usually the winter stores also are for the spring build up also. so they might not be included

In Sweden we give 12 to 20 kg depending on when and how much honey is harvested and left in the hive.
Poly hives, more sugar farther north.

mvh edward  tongue

Same in Finland. Hive has allways pollen and brood when I start to feed. I take all honey off except from brood frames. So  16 litre 1:2 syrup will fill one box hive. Two box hive needs  3x 8 liter feeding.
With that amount I do not feed in Spring. I move food frames from full hives to empty hives that winter food will be consumed before summer.

After warm winter hives have much more food than after severe winter. So simple fact.


I have Italian bees and I prefer 2-box wintering.
About half are in one box.
.Never 3 box.

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derekm
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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2013, 05:44:23 AM »

18lbs - 8kg in Norway could bee right for winter food consumption

But usually the winter stores also are for the spring build up also. so they might not be included

In Sweden we give 12 to 20 kg depending on when and how much honey is harvested and left in the hive.
Poly hives, more sugar farther north.

mvh edward  tongue


I got this from a 1974 paper   IMPORTANCE OF HIVE INSULATION FOR WINTERING, DEVELOPMENT AND HONEY YIELD IN NORWAY
E. VILLUMSTAD .

Northern U.S. beekeepers please read completely it has a lot of useful insights

http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?sid=&zone=download&action=download_file&file_id=460&categ_id=80
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
edward
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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2013, 07:09:14 AM »

Interesting, and confirmed a lot of what I have bee taught about beekeeping.

mvh edward  tongue
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Finski
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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2013, 08:13:45 AM »



I got this from a 1974 paper   IMPORTANCE OF HIVE INSULATION FOR WINTERING, DEVELOPMENT AND HONEY YIELD IN NORWAY
E. VILLUMSTAD .


Good heavens. Things have changed after that. it is 40 years.

Polystyrene hives are now and you need not know about insulation. You just keep bees in polyboxes.

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derekm
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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2013, 01:05:51 PM »



I got this from a 1974 paper   IMPORTANCE OF HIVE INSULATION FOR WINTERING, DEVELOPMENT AND HONEY YIELD IN NORWAY
E. VILLUMSTAD .


Good heavens. Things have changed after that. it is 40 years.

Polystyrene hives are now and you need not know about insulation. You just keep bees in polyboxes.


This research actually quotes the insulation level(K value) ... the levels they tested at are better insulated than  polystyrene boxes made in Finland i have been able to measure quantitively.
Not all polyboxes are the same. There are considerable differences in contruction and thermal properties.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 01:35:56 PM »

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What ever it is, 8 kg food over winter is impossible.

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Bush_84
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« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 02:05:20 PM »

My own bees have consistently consumed "more" when our winters are mild, when compared to more severe winters when they just seem to 'stop' or slow down everything.   Must be that "local beekeeping" thing  grin

I would also have to disagree with this.  I believe cold is good for bees, but to a point.  A severe winter is not good for bees.  In a severe winter with multiple days below zero as a high in a row will kill hives.  They will starve with honey right next to them, unless they are a strong and healthy colony.

 I guess the term severe and mild are subjective and determined by you standard winter.  If you standard winter means highs of 60 and lows of 30 then a "severe" winter would probably be good for your bees.  If you standard winter means highs in the upper teens to lower 20s then a severe winter will be quite rough.  In this case you are praying for a mild winter with average highs in the 30-40s. 

We had a great winter last year and saw standard highs of upper 30s.  I didn't lose one hive.  This winter has been a bit colder with multiple days in January with a high below 10 or lower and many days with a high in the lower 20s. I have already lost two hives, but the three that I have are good strong hives that should make it through the rest of the winter just fine.  However even when your hives survive a severe winter, they will consume more honey because they will need to get the extra calories from somewhere to generate the extra heat to maintain the temp in the cluster. 

So I am with finski on this one.  I am going to give my hives every possible chance I can.  I am going to want them insulated with whatever I can get my paws on.  Wrap in tar paper.  Make sure they have plenty of stores and a good queen. 
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Finski
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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 03:30:07 PM »

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Hard winter to bees means that there is a long period cold. We had that 2 years ago.
All apple tree flower buttons died, not for cold but for long period, because they dried up.

When it is cold, bee cluster is not a ball. The bees are as slices  between combs. They cannot move from there if food is finnish.

I saw lots of hives where 2 or 3 slices of cluster had died and ther rest is survived.

The mild winter means that the cluster can move and reform again and again and move to food. There might be handfull of bees after winter but still alive and they have collected together.

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